love (as spirituality) vs. violence (sometimes a part of survival)

topic posted Mon, September 17, 2007 - 8:50 AM by  Unsubscribed
This is a bit of an odd topic, but I think this tribe is about as good a place as I'm likely to find to discuss it. This is a rather large topic for me, and hopefully I can summarize it in a meaningful way.

My basic premise is that as long as humankind responds to violence with violence, we are doomed. Because of the "natural" tendency of violence to escalate (until one 'participant' submits, usually returning later with a higher degree of violence) that, to me, seems obvious and requires no spiritual beliefs to accept as a reasonable argument. (Whether or not we have a viable alternative, is a separate topic.)

The second part of my personal belief, has to do with "energy", mass unconscious, and fields of thought/emotion. This is where I may lose a lot of folks, but, oh well. I believe that thoughts have energy. "Mob psychology" (as an example) happens because a group of people combine emotion with like thoughts, and they feed and magnify each other. If you've ever found yourself in the midst of a mob, you know the energy is palpable. Any time two or more people agree on something, the confirmation/justification/validation builds the energy or conviction in each of them. Returning to my original statement, "as long as humankind responds to violence with violence, we are doomed" -- this now takes on a whole new level of meaning. The premise being that people coming together on any level in support of the use of violence are perpetuating violence itself, even if no action is taken.

Which brings me to my next and last point. Following this line of logic, the idea that we will "prepare for the worst and hope for the best" appears tragically flawed. The energy involved in preparation is geometrically greater than the energy we produce with "hope". If you spend your morning at the range shooting, your afternoon repairing your fences and checking your parameter, your evening on forums reassuring yourself that you are not alone, and then before going to bed at night you say a little prayer for peace, you've created a whole lot more energy in one field than the other.

One example of my personal experience with this concept revolves around carrying. I have a permit to carry (CHL in my state) and I have gone for long periods of time with and without a gun on my person 24/7. I have definitely noticed that there is a difference in my mental framework when my options for conflict resolution have changed that fundamentally. This includes interactions with people and even dogs. I am not by any stretch implying that all of a sudden I have some loose cannon "shoot 'em up" mentality -- its actually very subtle, but there is a shift. The essence of the shift is that when unarmed I realize that at the very outset of a possible confrontation with violent people (or animals) my best weapon to diffuse the situation is to flood it with love (this is not passive, but that's another topic). That may sound ridiculous, but its my experience - it works. When I'm armed, I'm more likely to simply stand my ground, not aggressively and not submissively... more like I'm too lazy to actually heal the situation. This description is overly simplified, but hopefully the essence is not lost.

The genius of Gandhi was that he forced the British to look at themselves; by not responding with violence they could not justify their actions and their violence (now isolated) was demonstrated as obscene in the face of pacifism. In a sense, at least for a short period of time, Gandhi "healed" the British of their violent tendencies... obviously it didn't stick. Today's problems are different and undoubtedly more complex, since the British at least on paper claimed to be part of the "civilized" world and possessed a moral code which contradicted their actions. It would appear that since "terrorists" apparently would rejoice if we stood idly by and allowed them to blow us up, this tactic would no longer work... but I can't be certain of that, I've never met or spoken with a terrorist. Also, a drug-crazed person or one in the throws of an addiction withdrawal are most likely not to be reasoned with. So I understand that on both one-on-one and international levels, pacifism may not be functional. Which is why I am amongst the "prepared", and I understand the inherent flaws in being human. But... in terms of evolution and the ultimate survival of our species, the question still remains...

My question is -- if there are any in this tribe whose concept of survivalist **love** is a spiritual one -- How do you deal with the discrepancy between the micro and the macro, between the spiritual and philosophical understanding of the nature of violence, and your personal willingness to participate in violence?
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  • "My question is -- if there are any in this tribe whose concept of survivalist **love** is a spiritual one -- How do you deal with the discrepancy between the micro and the macro, between the spiritual and philosophical understanding of the nature of violence, and your personal willingness to participate in violence?"

    Sometimes, it's a choice between the societal good and the personal good. Let's talk about vaccinations, just because I happen to think that I understand this one. On a societal level, they are a good thing. Being surrounded by mostly healthy folks is better than being surrounded by less healthy folks. On a personal level, they are a little less good. The statistics are such that any one person could have a bad reaction (up to and including DEATH) to a vaccine. So, the ideal arrangement for any ONE person is that everyone else gets the vaccine and the ONE person does not. But that ideal arrangement just cannot be blown up for everyone. It's just not possible.

    So, as an individual, I have a choice to make. Do I take the vaccine and risk a bad reaction? Do I not take the vaccine and risk that everyone else has, so that I'd be "safe"? Is my personal well-being more important than the well-being of society? Am I going to sacrifice myself on the altar of societal/global good?

    For the good of society, I should not prepare too thoroughly, because of the negative energy that will create. For my private well-being, I might consider the whole nine yards, and to hell with society and the negative energy I'm creating, I'm going to survive, dammit!

    How to choose? I don't have an answer. My children were vaccinated, very carefully and very slowly, to watch for reactions. I'm pretty sure that I would not do even that, now. I'm not sure this society should survive. But, it is the one I have, and I like hot water and inner spring mattresses and grocery stores. In someways it's all I know.

    Good questions. No solid answers. Darn.
  • "My question is -- if there are any in this tribe whose concept of survivalist **love** is a spiritual one -- How do you deal with the discrepancy between the micro and the macro, between the spiritual and philosophical understanding of the nature of violence, and your personal willingness to participate in violence?"

    Sometimes, it's a choice between the societal good and the personal good. Let's talk about vaccinations, just because I happen to think that I understand this one. On a societal level, they are a good thing. Being surrounded by mostly healthy folks is better than being surrounded by less healthy folks. On a personal level, they are a little less good. The statistics are such that any one person could have a bad reaction (up to and including DEATH) to a vaccine. So, the ideal arrangement for any ONE person is that everyone else gets the vaccine and the ONE person does not. But that ideal arrangement just cannot be blown up for everyone. It's just not possible.

    So, as an individual, I have a choice to make. Do I take the vaccine and risk a bad reaction? Do I not take the vaccine and risk that everyone else has, so that I'd be "safe"? Is my personal well-being more important than the well-being of society? Am I going to sacrifice myself on the altar of societal/global good?

    For the good of society, I should not prepare too thoroughly, because of the negative energy that will create. For my private well-being, I might consider the whole nine yards, and to hell with society and the negative energy I'm creating, I'm going to survive, dammit!

    How to choose? I don't have an answer. My children were vaccinated, very carefully and very slowly, to watch for reactions. I'm pretty sure that I would not do even that, now. I'm not sure this society should survive. But, it is the one I have, and I like hot water and inner spring mattresses and grocery stores. In someways it's all I know.

    Good questions. No solid answers. Darn.
    • Unsu...
       
      "No solid answers. Darn."

      I think your point of societal vs. personal good is interesting. Sometimes when I am in the midst of some self-serving preparation, I feel like there is inherently in that a giving up on society as a whole. Some days I have given up, no doubt about it. Other days I think that without hope there is no hope. Mostly I try to hold onto goodness for its own sake, and let the chips fall where they may.

      There may not be any solid answers, I'm fairly sure there is no "right" answer. Its just a matter of what gets us through the day.

      • It's the difference, I think, between liberals and true communitarians. What is more important, the personal private good, or the social good? There is often a price to be paid, one way or another. And then, "yer pays yer money, and takes yer choice".
        • I've written a response 3 times now...and none of them have reached the point I wanted to make. I don't know what the option is when violence is forced upon you, either as an individual or a society. All my life, and I'm passed the half century mark, I've been told not to fight. Taking this to heart I was the object of bullies for many years, and later was sexual assaulted by teen girls in high school. My inability to strike out in violence colored my life for over 3 decades.
          One incident occurred when my eldest child was only a few months old. An armed man broke into our home. My daughter was sleeping on the sofa between us. He was armed with a knife. I was armed with a gun. I told him to leave. Rather than taking this as a cue to leave, he approached and said, "You won't shoot me," and flourished his butterfly blade like some idiot from a kung fu movie. I shot him.
          Home break-ins plummeted.
          I have no bad feelings about it.

          I think as long as I avoid violence, and heavens knows I try, I can love with some sense of spirituality. But I can't and won't give up my right to protect myself and those I love from harm.

          So it goes.

          • You know, on some levels, I'm an old school bleeding heart liberal. But my heart ain't bleedin' for that guy you had to shoot, and I'm not all worried about who had done what to *him* to make him that way (although academically and philosophically, it's a great topic for conversation). Mostly I feel for you and your wife, to have that happen, to have been forced to go through that.

            I'm so bloody sheltered that I don't know if I'm grateful or worried about it.
            • Unsu...
               
              This is all true. There seems to be a great void between the philosophy of evolving, and the rare but never-the-less real possibility of an encounter in which we'd be defending our lives... and I realize that this tribe is about finding like-minded mates in this crazy world, so if my ramblings are too off topic just let me know and I'll understand.

              When I'm trying to distill a philosophical idea, I tend to think in pervasive terms of right and wrong, all or nothing. For there to be heaven on earth, the whole world would need to put down their weapons. If we believe that heaven on earth is possible, then our responsibility is to put down *our* weapons. Its like the old saying, "no single drop of water believes its responsible for the flood".

              So, that said, all the guns I own mean to me that I have given up on Utopia, Heaven on Earth, Peace on Earth, etc. I'm firmly entrenched in the idea that random acts of violence happen -- and as an extension, since there is no end in sight to violence, there is no possibility of healing for humankind.

              Geez... that's depressing! Sorry. I was just trying to explain my fascination with this element of what it is to be human. I think I can say all of this without actually getting (functionally) depressed because I'm somewhat detached from it -- as in, I'm studying humanity as if I were an alien. Perhaps I am an alien... but that'd be another topic for a completely different tribe, I suspect.

              • Let me suggest a change of perspective.

                The problem is not in your preparations but in your attitude towards those preparations.

                In your CHL example, the gun does not change your energy. You do, and you do not need to. The point is not to put out the effort to heal others because you have no other choice, but because it is the right thing. It would be like selling my car because if I have it I will not walk and so will be physically out of shape. The problem is my motivation to exercise not my owning a car.

                Try carrying a gun not to keep yourself safe, but because you know there is evil in the world. And should it rise up near you, you have made a commitment to stand up and say “NO! not here, not now.”



                Do you take other into account when you prepare? Do you only put by food for yourself, or do you try and build an ‘ark’ to save as many as you can?

                Can you see the change in perspective I am suggesting?
                • Unsu...
                   
                  "Can you see the change in perspective I am suggesting? "

                  As far as taking others into account, that's an interesting POV. Having just moved for the second time in less than four years, I have few friends and not much community, so practically speaking most of my preparations are just for me.

                  But I think I understand your point. Perhaps thinking of the 'preparations' as actions towards saving some element of the world (be it myself or as many others as I can offer help to) as opposed to preparing with the focus being on some unknown and yet inevitable evil -- changes the nature of the intention.

                  I can live with that. Thanks Glenn!

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