students who don't do anything wrong

topic posted Mon, December 31, 2007 - 11:20 AM by  Annie
Hi,
I'm kind-of new to tribe but I'm thrilled to be here. I've been reading through the 'teaching belly dance' posts for a couple of days hoping to find a bit of advice.

I'm in a situation where I'm a student, but also the teacher's assistant. (This is simply because I have been dancing considerably longer than most of the other students.) I'm very new to teaching. However, most students pick it up from the instructor with an occasional bit of help from me.

Not having much teaching experience, here is my question: How do you help with a student who always responds, "I AM doing it that way!" I spent one entire class reminding a student to keep her knees bent. (She was dancing in running shorts and it was very obvious that her knees were held straight for every move we drilled.) She would say, "My knees ARE bent." If we told her to turn right and she turned left, she would say, "I DID turn right." Or with shoulder isolations: her hip scarf will be jiggling away and she will tell us, "My hips are NOT moving".

Part of me is telling me to just let it go. But, then part of me wants to help her learn to dance. She is obviously trying hard, but she gets frustrated when she looks in the mirror and doesn't see herself doing what I am doing.

Help!!
posted by:
Annie
North Carolina
  • Re: students who don't do anything wrong

    Mon, December 31, 2007 - 12:02 PM
    I would try different techniques and see what clicks with her.

    Sometimes people don't want to be called out in front of the class. If that's the case, it may be best just to say nothing directly.

    Sometimes people don't understand the first instruction, particularly if you repeat it the same way. If you rephrase what you are saying, but address it to the entire class, she may pick up on the fact that she's misunderstood.

    It could be that she's just so narcissistic that she isn't even looking at you so she doesn't know what you are doing or that she's doing it wrong. If this is the case (and I did have a student like this before), I'd let it go. Any effort on your part will be wasted.

    Hope one of those things helps.

    Taaj
    www.taaj.org
  • Re: students who don't do anything wrong

    Mon, December 31, 2007 - 12:47 PM
    Students who feel they are doing it right are hard because you do not want to discourage but cannot ignore....tough one

    I agree with trying different methods of explaining. I actually have some 'tests' (sounds harsh but they are some tricks) to make sure they are doing moves right....it may be coming up on toe to ensure buttocks are used for hip ups instead of knees or traveling....if you can think of some variation to show that there is something wrong that often works because then the arguement is removed.

    Other option is to ensure you approach the person with a positive comment first....if they are embarrassed or defensive then it will help. Then say lets try this 'also'....like you are adding on rather than correcting. Just changing the presentation may help....but reassure what is right so they feel good.

    For the knees...see if she starts out bent and then rises up on certain moves and may be honestly does not realize it. Pretty common....so I just remind them half through those moves ... 'keep those knees bent and do not rise up now'.

    Hope this helps.....teaching is a learning experience for us too!
  • Re: students who don't do anything wrong

    Mon, December 31, 2007 - 3:20 PM
    Maybe you could simply say to her "Perhaps it feels like you're doing it right, but when I look at you, it's not correct and I'm telling you this because you are unaware [that your legs aren't bent; you're moving your hips, etc.]"
  • Re: students who don't do anything wrong

    Mon, December 31, 2007 - 4:59 PM
    Being a massage therapist I tend to be hands on. Of course I ask permission first!
    Then I would physically get behind the student and press the back of the knee so it bends in the front.
    For the hips moving when she thinks they are not, I just hold their hip on each side about hip bone level and hold the hip STILL so they can feel it.
    And of course when someone says they're going right when they're actually going left, I say "your other right". With a big smile of course.

    Remember some people are auditory learners (hearing), visual learners (seeing) and kinetic learners (feeling in the body), most are a mix of all three.

    • Re: students who don't do anything wrong

      Tue, January 1, 2008 - 10:07 AM
      Have to agree with this. Some folks do have physical limitations, but it sounds like this student does not.

      Keeping the knees bent is the most difficult part sometimes. In tai chi, I would have to do this standing meditation called "Embracing the Tree," in which the knees are bent, arms held out in front and curved like you are hugging a gigantic tree. The eyes are closed and you engage in deep breathing from the diphragm (in through the nose, out through the mouth). During my first few months, I would think that I had my knees bent — but I would be unconsciously rising up as I breathed. Then the hands of my 350-pound sifu would descend on my shoulders and I'd realize, with a shock, just how far I had straightened my knees.

      I've used this meditation in class on occasion, and it has helped some folks a bit.

      Also turning folks to the side toward the mirror and doing posture checks can help. I have the whole class do it so as not to isolate individuals too much.
  • Re: students who don't do anything wrong

    Mon, December 31, 2007 - 5:01 PM
    If it is a situation where your mentor is there, you may just have to leave it to here. Or perhaps your mentor could make a general announcement that she trust you to make necessary comments and corrections, she encourages the students to take advantage of your personal counsel and observations.
  • Re: students who don't do anything wrong

    Mon, December 31, 2007 - 8:15 PM
    What exactly does she do when you give her a correction, she says she's doing it right, and then you turn away?

    Does she get more flustered & become less accurate in her movements? Then she may have trouble having attention drawn to her. When we have students like that in class, I try to let them hang back a little and give tips for home practice. Those are often the people who will end up practicing for hours between classes & later be quite dedicated, but just being in a class is pretty hard for them.

    Does she continue to do the same thing, but be frustrated that she doesn't look like you in the mirror? That she's probably a kinesthetic learner who needs to FEEL the right way in order to do it. She actually may not know she's doing the wrong thing, cause to her body, it feels like her knees ARE bent, her hips AREN'T moving, yet she can't make it look right. Do what Zafira says in that case - she needs hands-on help.

    Does she get huffy but then get it right? Maybe she's just argumentative/defensive. It helps with those folks to avoid putting them on the defensive; say things like "try bending your knees a little more" rather than "your knees aren't bent", especially when they're beginners.
    • Re: students who don't do anything wrong

      Thu, January 3, 2008 - 5:42 PM
      Usually when we correct her it goes something like this:
      Our teacher is taking us through drills of some type. I'm walking around the room or dancing in the very back. I usually give attention to each person individually. From the beginning, whenever I approached her, she immediately shut down. I could tell that correcting her was going to be a tricky situation.
      In the "bend your knees" situation I mentioned that it may help if she bent her knees a bit more. (They were not at all bent.). She said, "My knees are bent; I just can't do this." So I explained that I find it most helpful to do hip lifts with my knees bent like this. And I pulled up my skirt and showed how bent my knees are. She says, "Yeah, that's what I'm doing". The first time I had her dance behind me and watch and try to copy my knees and then my hips. The next time the problem came up I had her try a few hip lifts with straight legs and then VERY bent knees. She says she cannot tell the difference. We also tried just standing still and bending one knee and then the other to pay attention to how her hips can move. I think she is very capable of the movements, just very frustrated.
      We talked a bit about how to practice at home, but the next week she informed me that she is NOT going to practice at home. She said that she didn't want to practice it the wrong way.

      Her responses are always, "I AM doing that" and "My moves just don't look like yours."
      She even suggested that I do it wrong to make her look better.

      I wonder if being in a class is just too stressful for her. She is very wary of being corrected even though we correct everyone (it IS a beginner class).

      We took a break from classes for the holidays and we start back next week. I'm really hoping she will come back, but I do want to be a bit more prepared to help her out.


      Thanks everyone!!
      Nadhari
      • Re: students who don't do anything wrong

        Fri, January 4, 2008 - 5:20 AM
        Oh, yes. I've had that student. :)

        Stop giving her individual corrections until she's more confident that she's grasping the material fully. A lot of people don't respond well to correction in class, because it distracts them from trying & processing the information (not that they can actually articulate that problem, of course). Grab her after class and give her home practice ideas like good videos or something, praise her, and help her see her own progress. She's not comfortable with the individual attention yet - but think of it this way: she loves dancing so much that she shows up at class week after week, even though the attention of even performing in a class setting stresses her out a little. That's a LOT of enthusiasm, and if she can get past her own anxiety, she may be a really dedicated dancer.
        • Re: students who don't do anything wrong

          Tue, June 10, 2008 - 3:00 PM
          I like April's advice.

          "Her responses are always, "I AM doing that" and "My moves just don't look like yours." "
          Ah! I have not only HAD that student.... admittedly, I WAS that student at one time. In my experience as student, it stemmed from deeply-rooted insecurities that made it hard for me to receive correction of any sort, especially with something having to do with moving my body. Also, at that time I was more of an intellectual processor - preferring to make sense of things in my head rather than feeling them in my body.

          As a teacher, I talk to my students about intellect vs. intuition. Westerners usually really like the rational: "peg A goes into slot B and then you have a bookshelf." Bellydance, however, requires use of intuition. You have to "just feel out" some of the movements. This is scary at first, because many of our dogmas, social norms, etc. tell us that our instinctive movements are awkward, taboo, wrong... in short, should not be trusted. This is one reason kids have no trouble belly rolling, but adults may have to struggle - we've been burdened with all sorts of stigmas.

          As I see it, make sure to really, really, really, really, really encourage the things she does right, and she will be more open to hearing about what would be good to correct. She may have some hurt or shame in her background that makes her so defensive. Make sure not to single her out, give corrections to the people around her, too.

          In the end, you may have to leave her to figure it out on her own. Sometimes a student just needs a little room to explore the movement on her own without feeling like she is "being watched." LOL - I know that your intentions are pure, but it sounds like she is conditioned to hearing what she does wrong and is quick to throw a wall up when she does.

          Okay, I've written a friggin' novel here, sorry.
  • Re: students who don't do anything wrong

    Fri, January 18, 2008 - 1:27 PM
    Some people have no awareness of their bodies. This student might be just as frustrated as you are, if not more! Other students get defensive because they feel like any feedback equates to the teacher "picking on" them.
    I guess the only suggestion is to not just say "bend your knees", but give them a clear way to assess whether their knees are bent enough. I use the method of asking them to look down at their feet, and if they can see their 3rd toes, they don't have their knees bent deeply enough (for tribal at least). Encourage your students to check their own posture sideways in the mirror.
    For some things that are less concrete it will be harder to give people such clear parameters. And even when you give out these tips, some people will still stand with their knees locked! The only thing you can do is give gentle reminders a few times, maybe once or twice per class, and then let them be.
    Good luck!
    p.s. we are both in NC! maybe I'll see you around sometime!
  • Re: students who don't do anything wrong

    Sun, January 20, 2008 - 7:44 AM
    I do not have an assistant but as the instructor, I do critique my students, positively. I try to give them different ways to achieve whatever move we are striving for. If they get "nervous", I tell my new students, that I am going to help them learn the correct technique so they won't get hurt. If they don't learn the basics correctly, it's harder to move on to the next level.

    My former instructor has a student like this too and she hated the critisizm but kept coming back to class and has been doing it for three years. This student is great at giving critisizm but can't take it well. My instructor still gives her constructive critisizm and let's her "not taking it well" roll off her back UNLESS it distrupts the class. This student probably will never be a great dancer but she still loves to dance, so I guess that is what matters.
    • Re: students who don't do anything wrong

      Sun, February 10, 2008 - 7:14 PM

      I've had the same experience with students telling me they aren't moving their hips when they are doing an upper body movement. I stand next to them and we do it together in the mirror and then I point blank ask them "if your hips aren't moving than why are your coins moving and why is your hip scarf jingling?" A few will try to continue to deny it, so we do it again and I starting pointing to the strands that are moving. Most will then agree sheepishly that yes their hips must have been moving.

      Some have tried to get out of it by not wearing a hip scarf. I innocently say "oh you forgot yours, here, borrow mine while we work on this move." Most admit to me at the end of class that they forgot theirs on purpose. I act like I didn't realize, but at the end of class they admit that wearing it really helped them realize what they need to work on. Sometimes they admit it to me at the end of that class, sometimes it's not until the end of the session.

      I'd also like to encourage you to encourage her to have patience. No one gets these things perfect the first time. Make sure she understands there is no pressure and no deadlines on learning moves correctly. Also about the whole "I don't practice at home cause I don't want to practice wrong" (it annoys me every time I hear this) my response to this is we would still be sitting in the dark if Edison had that attitude. He failed to make the light bulb something like over 200 times. Everyone has to fail a lot of times in order to learn how NOT to do it so they can then learn the correct way it should be done.

      Good Luck!
      • Re: students who don't do anything wrong

        Wed, February 13, 2008 - 9:03 AM
        Hi all
        Great advice!
        another tip, and this is what my teacher does if we are having a really hard time with a set of moves, is she will stand right in front of us so we can see exactly where we are supposed to be moving. I have used this with other students and it really helps them if they are just not getting it............and repeat the movements in drills in this position until it looks like everyone is getting it, and then move back to your previous postion and keep drilling. Good luck!
  • Re: students who don't do anything wrong

    Wed, February 13, 2008 - 3:19 PM
    She needs to take the shoes off!
    If you cant feel the floor on the balls of her feet, she cant tell where the weight is. Dont know where the weight is - cant tell whats going on in any part of the body. The signal from mind to body may not connect until its FELT by her feet. Make sense?
    IF she must wear shoes, suggest to her that she invest in Jazz shoes or look online for Dance shoes. Get the soft sole anything!

    Also - its a beginner. Let her have some time and space to discover how to move.
    If she wants to work at it, a mirror at home helps independant learning. When they are alone and able to relax, stuff happens! If she's in it for exercise or a new experience.. it happens to be bellydance right now...allow that and dont take it personal.

    Let your students be responsible for their own motivations, you can teach core technique but dont argue with a student beyond a suggestion and quick demonstration. Its counter productive.

    Dont move her into an intermediate class until form is solid. Great motivation for getting it solid! Some people enjoy beginner class and remain there for years!
  • Re: students who don't do anything wrong

    Thu, April 3, 2008 - 11:50 AM
    This may be a random comment, since it sounds like the student's problem may be more of mental block and lack of body awareness. But does this student have hyper extension in her knees? I some hyper extension in my knees, and so when I stand with them straight, they still feel slightly bent to me. My knees only feel straight when they're locked, which is something I really avoid trying to do since it's hard on my knees.

    Anyway, I don't know if that plus inexperience and a lack of body awareness could be contributing to the problem.

    BTW, one way to test for hyper extension in the knees is to put the backs of your knees together and see if you still have your feet apart. Some people, like a former ballet instructor of mine, have crazy hyper extension. She could stand with the backs of her knees together and her heels were almost shoulder width apart.

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