topic posted Sat, April 23, 2011 - 11:39 AM by  Unsubscribed
A resounding yes vote may be found here:

** The A.A. failure rate ranges from 95% to 100%. Sometimes, the A.A. success rate is actually less than zero, which means that A.A. indoctrination is positively harmful to people, and prevents recovery. Some tests have shown that even receiving no treatment at all for alcoholism is much better than receiving A.A. treatment:

**One of the most enthusiastic boosters of Alcoholics Anonymous, Professor George Vaillant of Harvard University, who is also a member of the Board of Trustees of Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc. (AAWS), showed by his own 8 years of testing of A.A. that A.A. was worse than useless — that it didn’t help the alcoholics any more than no treatment at all, and it had the highest death rate of any treatment program tested — a death rate that Professor Vaillant himself described as “appalling”. While trying to prove that A.A. treatment works, Professor Vaillant actually proved that A.A. kills. After 8 years of A.A. treatment, the score with Dr. Vaillant’s first 100 alcoholic patients was: 5 sober, 29 dead, and 66 still drinking.

**The A.A. dropout rate is terrible. Most people who come to A.A. looking for help in quitting drinking are appalled by the narrow-minded atmosphere of fundamentalist religion and faith-healing. The A.A. meeting room has a revolving door. The therapists, judges, and parole officers (many of whom are themselves hidden members of A.A. or N.A.) continually send new people to A.A., but those newcomers vote with their feet once they see what A.A. really is.
posted by:

    Sat, April 23, 2011 - 12:01 PM
    If those are accurate statistics it is astounding that something so ineffective is so actively implemented despite it's glaring failures. Perhaps the good folks down at the palace need to take a page out of their own playbook, " Denial is not a river in Egypt ".

      Sat, April 23, 2011 - 12:11 PM
      IMHO one of the main problems with AA is the first step where you have to say you are powerless over a volitional behavior. Other programs like SMART Recovery teach self empowerment as being central to recovery. Half of the 12 steps mention God or a "higher power" yet they use the canard that they are "spiritual and not religious" despite the fact that a number of courts have ruled that AA is religious and therefore it violates church/state separation to mandate people to attend. IMHO quitting drinking can be a one step process, but AA says that one must attend meetings for the rest of your life to be truly sober. Abstinence is actually the same thing as sobriety, but AA insists that if you don't attend meetings yet remain abstinent that you are a "dry drunk."
  • Unsu...


    Sat, April 23, 2011 - 12:14 PM

    --Yes. It "works" for some people, and of those people most of them seem to become fanatical about it, addicted to a victim complex that they project onto others.
    • Unsu...


      Sat, April 23, 2011 - 12:29 PM
      --Yes. It "works" for some people, and of those people most of them seem to become fanatical about it, addicted to a victim complex that they project onto others<<<<<

      An old roommate of mine, now a doctor, has been sober for 20 years and is fanatical about AA. What bugged me is how intent he was on having *me* admit I'm an alcoholic. I almost never drink, and when I do it's maybe half a beer or a glass of wine. (I hate the feeling of intoxication--it's unpleasant for me. Nothing about it appeals.) I've had a few full "psych evals" (-work related) and those found that I am not "an addictive personality." (I'm not sure what that is, but they dismissed my teenage drug experimentation as unimportant.) I hated having this argument with the guy because he didn't have any evidence that I was an alcoholic but he somehow needed to believe that *everyone* is an addict.

      Indeed, I've met some people in "recovery" who claim they are the lucky ones because they recognize their addictions. They pity those who still walk in darkness.

      That sorta smugness irks me.
      In thinking of Trump lately, I coined the phrase "self-made buffoon." He ain't the only one...
      • Unsu...


        Sat, April 23, 2011 - 12:43 PM
        Ugh, all too typical story. "I'm an 'alcoholic', and now I have to make everyone else as pitiful as me."

        Makes me want to break a bottle of cheap scotch over their heads. "STFU, and go drown someone else in that whine!"

        Such people need to be culled from the herd.... (imho, hehehe...)
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          Sat, April 23, 2011 - 1:00 PM
          Damn! A lot of new Bullshit here haha!

          when I was a kid I was forced to attend AA by an uncle I worked for when I honestly told him I smoked cheeba.
          Hahaha! He actually made me say " Hi! My name is.... and I am a pothead!" No one batted an eye every time I said it trying not to laugh at myself! I attended a meeting every week day for 3 months hahaha! It made me become a hard alcoholic!!! I started drinking whiskey trying to sleep through the meetings way up there in yankeeland georgia!!!

          I agree the powerless thing really sucks when you are already powerless! It is brainwash crap! Made me into a serious alcoholic!
          Those people were pathetic hording all the coffee and chainsmoking all my cigs!
          • Unsu...


            Sat, April 23, 2011 - 1:06 PM
            lol, AA drove you to drinking...
            • Re:

              Sat, April 23, 2011 - 2:53 PM
              Bill Wilson who claims to have written the Big Book of AA said he had a spiritual vision that inspired him to establish AA. His vision was in reality an hallucination caused by taking belladonna as documented in the NYT article:



              Seems his higher power was powerless to do anything about his addiction to cigarettes which lead to his death from lung disease in 1971.
              It has been confirmed by people who were with Wilson at his death bed that he wanted some whiskey to deaden his pain. The humanitarian thing to do would be to let the guy have some whiskey, but his friends thought the AA image was more important. What this total abstinence approach has lead to today is that AA members are pressured to stop taking any medication including anti psychotic meds or anti depressants. This has caused numbers of people become depressed or psychotic and there have been several suicides. They even take it to the absurd level where people reject pain medications including aspirin.

              What did Bill W. and Timothy Leary have in common?

              "One of his therapeutic journeys lead him to Trabuco College in California, and the friendship of the college’s founder, Aldous Huxley. The author of Brave New World and The Doors of Perception introduced Wilson to LSD-25. The drug rocked Wilson’s world. He thought of it as something of a miracle substance and continued taking it well into the ‘60s. As he approached his 70th birthday, he developed a plan to have LSD distributed at all AA meetings nationwide. The plan was eventually quashed by more rational voices, and a few years later the Federal government made the point moot by making the drug illegal. (That Wilson’s plan was shot down is probably fortunate. LSD is a beautiful thing, but nothing sounds more horrifying to me than a roomful of chain-smoking, frightened, needy drunks tripping their heads off in the basement of the local Y.)"


              More on the funny spirituality of Bill Wilson from The Orange Papers:

              • Unsu...


                Sat, April 23, 2011 - 4:27 PM
                >>>>>>Bill Wilson who claims to have written the Big Book of AA said he had a spiritual vision that inspired him to establish AA. His vision was in reality an hallucination caused by taking belladonna as documented in the NYT article: <<<<<<

                That wouldn't bother me if AA worked. It doesn't work. That's what bothers me. Some people have had *good* ideas while hallucinating, you know. What matters is whether the idea is any good, not what you were doing when it came to you.

                As bad as AA is--and it's awful--the *kind* of bad thinking at work there isn't exclusive to AA (-or religion). It's inevitable whenever you try to explain the world from your own position in it rather than granting that the world was here before you, will be here after you, and your experiences, although important to you, are not the best place to look in hopes of understanding anything.