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First let me say that I'm sure there will not be agreement here. What I am looking for is your opinion, and why. I would prefer that this not reduce to criticism of others opinions. Opinions are like a$$holes: Everyone has one, and no one really wants to listen to someone else's. What I really want to hear is the reason that supports your opinion.
0 points for an unsupported statement. Example: I think that absinthe is any liquor that tastes like licorice. (but thanks for joining the chorus)
0 points for pleading from authority. Example: The best experts on absinthe say that it is... (whatever)
An honorable mention for second or third hand sources. Example: I read in Wired magazine, that absinthe was first made in... (whatever)
Points for citing first hand sources. Example: (OT) The use of a form of hydrometer to assure a high enough concentration of sugars when brewing a mead is historically confirmed by Digby in "The Closet of the Eminently Learned Sir Kenelme Digbie Kt Opened" first published in 1669. Digby said: "The rule of its being boiled enough is, when it yieldeth not more scum, and beareth an Egge, so that the breadth of a groat is out of the water." (points off because I didn't post the page number)
Points for reasoned logic. Example: The addition of just flavors to other categories of drink do not seem to separate them from their root category. While different flavored meads may have specific names such as rhodomel (adding rose petals) or metheglyn, (spices) these are all still meads. While whiskeys may be finished in port or sherry casks, sometimes radically affecting their character, they are all still whiskeys. The addition of flavors like coconut may ruin a rum, but it's still technically rum. (etc.) I would thereby argue that, by general historical world standards, the addition of optional flavoring herbs should not disqualify a liquor that would otherwise be considered an absinthe.
You get the picture: back up your opinion, and not with hearsay.
From what little I've read, the defining characteristic of absinthe seems to be the wormwood. Anise seems to be the second runner up, though disagreement over what form of anise makes me question it's universality. Fennel seems to be common, though less commonly mentioned. Other herbs seem to be all, some, or none of an assortment. The alcohol content varies, but seems to always be stronger than is fermentable. Thujone content varies, ostensibly to match various market regulations, but when not present the drink is not called absinthe. (absenting other herbs doesn't seem to affect the name in any legal way) It is not sweet in the bottle, like a liqueur, but dry like a liquor, and is often sweetened to taste when served. I've likely missed, or misinterpreted some details, as this isn't my area of expertise.
Opinions about it seem to be as contentious, and often as pretentious, as opinions about whiskey/whisky seem to be.
0 points for an unsupported statement. Example: I think that absinthe is any liquor that tastes like licorice. (but thanks for joining the chorus)
0 points for pleading from authority. Example: The best experts on absinthe say that it is... (whatever)
An honorable mention for second or third hand sources. Example: I read in Wired magazine, that absinthe was first made in... (whatever)
Points for citing first hand sources. Example: (OT) The use of a form of hydrometer to assure a high enough concentration of sugars when brewing a mead is historically confirmed by Digby in "The Closet of the Eminently Learned Sir Kenelme Digbie Kt Opened" first published in 1669. Digby said: "The rule of its being boiled enough is, when it yieldeth not more scum, and beareth an Egge, so that the breadth of a groat is out of the water." (points off because I didn't post the page number)
Points for reasoned logic. Example: The addition of just flavors to other categories of drink do not seem to separate them from their root category. While different flavored meads may have specific names such as rhodomel (adding rose petals) or metheglyn, (spices) these are all still meads. While whiskeys may be finished in port or sherry casks, sometimes radically affecting their character, they are all still whiskeys. The addition of flavors like coconut may ruin a rum, but it's still technically rum. (etc.) I would thereby argue that, by general historical world standards, the addition of optional flavoring herbs should not disqualify a liquor that would otherwise be considered an absinthe.
You get the picture: back up your opinion, and not with hearsay.
From what little I've read, the defining characteristic of absinthe seems to be the wormwood. Anise seems to be the second runner up, though disagreement over what form of anise makes me question it's universality. Fennel seems to be common, though less commonly mentioned. Other herbs seem to be all, some, or none of an assortment. The alcohol content varies, but seems to always be stronger than is fermentable. Thujone content varies, ostensibly to match various market regulations, but when not present the drink is not called absinthe. (absenting other herbs doesn't seem to affect the name in any legal way) It is not sweet in the bottle, like a liqueur, but dry like a liquor, and is often sweetened to taste when served. I've likely missed, or misinterpreted some details, as this isn't my area of expertise.
Opinions about it seem to be as contentious, and often as pretentious, as opinions about whiskey/whisky seem to be.
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Re: What defines absinthe?
Thu, May 24, 2007 - 12:39 AMAQUA CELESTIS IS MADE THUS "Take of cinnamon, cloves, ginger, nutmegs, zedoary, galangal, long pepper, citron pill, spikenard, lignum aloes, cububs, cardamum, calamus aromaticus, germander, ground pine, mace, white frankincense, tormentil, hermodactyls, the pith of dwarf elder, juniper berries, bay berries, the seeds and flowers of motherwort, the seeds of smallage, the seeds of FENNEL, seeds of ANISE.................
Then add the root of gentian, flowers of rosemary, pepperwort, the root of briony, sow bread, WORMWOOD"
Source: The Art of Distillation by John French Printed 1651.
Aqua Celestis is used in alchemy, it was also a commercial medicine. Dr Ordinaire "invented" abisnthe? The problem with that is that he never lived, apart from in the minds of 19th Century advertising gurus. -
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Re: What defines absinthe?
Thu, May 24, 2007 - 5:53 AMOk WTF is Sow Bread, and how does the fermentation process take place. -
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Re: What defines absinthe?
Thu, May 24, 2007 - 6:47 AMSource: WordNet (r) 1.7
cyclamen
n : Mediterranean plant widely cultivated as a houseplant for
its showy dark green leaves splotched with silver and
nodding white or pink to reddish flowers with reflexed
petals [syn: Cyclamen purpurascens]
Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913)
Cyclamen \Cyc"la*men\ (s?k"l?-m?n), n. [NL., fr. Gr.
kykla`minos, kyklami`s.] (Bot.)
A genus of plants of the Primrose family, having depressed
rounded corms, and pretty nodding flowers with the petals so
reflexed as to point upwards, whence it is called rabbits'
ears. It is also called sow bread, because hogs are said
to eat the corms.
www.illustratedgarden.org/mobot...ge.asp -
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Re: What defines absinthe?
Thu, May 24, 2007 - 9:06 AM
Does the Voynich manuscript depict artemisia absinthium? Nobody has a clue what it says of course, but the alchemists who used Aqua Celestis probably handled it.
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Re: What defines absinthe?
Thu, May 24, 2007 - 9:09 AMA good question and something that has come up recently at a number of different places.
From what I understand modern tastes lean towards the wormwood and other interesting flavors whereas the french of the 19th century leaned towards the anise side.
A basic definition of absinthe,
Must contain green-Anise and grand wormwood, with the anise as the predominate flavor. These herbs must be distilled either using steam (oil mix) or alembic (standard distilling). Must be at least 45% ABV. Must louche when cold water is added. Can be left clear, natural or artificially colored. [1] [2] [3 [4] No sugar should be added to the bottle.[5]. Thujone content doesn't matter.[6]
Which leaves a very wide range of qualities and experiments. Other herbs are quite common such as Fennel, Petite wormwood and Hyssops, but the base requirements in manuals from the highest to the lowest quality appears to be just green anise and grand wormwood.
By anise flavor this includes the anise/licorice like tastes of fennel, star anise and even licorice.
Sources
1: Duplais manuals 1882 and 1899
Duplais manuals: www.oxygenee.com/absinthe/books4.html
2: Pernod 1797 recipe.
3: Pernod fils 1896 catalog.
4: Reviews from those who have tasted pre-ban absinthe.
Reviews www.feeverte.net/guide/his...he_brands/
5: Sugar wasn't used in the recipes above and pre-ban manuals often list something similar to absinthe with a lower ABV and added sugar under a different name in a different section.
6: The ability to accurately gauge thujone content is quite new. The idea of testing every brand is new as well. One study accidentally produced a thujone-free absinthe, so there isn't a reason to consider all absinthe as containing thujone. (Lach 2006) (see thujone debate for information and sources)
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Re: What defines absinthe?
Fri, May 25, 2007 - 5:20 AMAn interesting snippet. Not well researched, but here it is:
Absinthe is the French word for wormwood. It's pronounced ab´- sant.
www.feeverte.net/faq-absinthe.html -
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Re: What defines absinthe?
Fri, May 25, 2007 - 8:34 AMA medicinal draught described in correspondence from 1679, and called "absinthe"
This was long before the fantasy figure of Dr Ordinaire was invented:
"Si je n’avais trouvé notre petit Livry tout à propos, j’aurais été malade. J’avalai là tout doucement mon absinthe ; M. de Pomponne et sa famille, et Mme de Vins, font tout de même"
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Re: What defines absinthe?
Fri, May 25, 2007 - 9:39 AMThe word or variations of it goes back to the greeks and further. There are a number of references to soaking wormwood in wine to make a very bitter brew used medicinally and also used to wean babies (poor babies). Similar to Vermouth of today (which also means wormwood). The use of the word (and the use of the herb) goes back quite a ways.
However when most people talk about "absinthe" they also talk about the green fairy, Van Gogh, etc. All of which is linked to the 18th-20th century liquor.
(If sources are needed for this I can provide them but it will be a few weeks). -
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Re: What defines absinthe?
Fri, May 25, 2007 - 11:25 AM>If sources are needed for this I can provide them but it will be a few weeks
Why haven't they been "written" yet?
Please don't waste your time quoting South African hoteliers or graphic designers on this. We don't need the opinions of diletante zealots. Neither do we want to hear from obscure German vets.
I challenge you to provide them now. If you don't, it will confirm my suspiscion that there is disingenuous and organised effort afoot.
The simple fact is that Dr Odinaire, who is quoted by nearly all coffe table books on the subject, is a fantasy. He is the product of Franco Swiss rivalry - even today you have two competing festivals across national borders. This is linked to the historical commercialisation of absinthe, and not it's origins as a pan European folk medicinal product. Do you know if there were stills in the back of apothecary shops in 17th Century Paris, Ari?
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Re: What defines absinthe?
Fri, May 25, 2007 - 12:18 PM"Disingenuous and organized effort afoot" by this do you mean Guerilla marketing? In Guerilla Marketing paid propagandizers create a "buzz" for products by pretending to be regular people and for example spend day and night on absinthe forums pushing a few select lines of absinthe while bashing others? Also known as "brainwash marketing," these sales reps are can be recognized by their changing positions as the object of sale changes. ie. "Oil mix is not real absinthe except for the one my friend sells which you should buy and try." Just like Wall Mart but on a smaller scale the message is the same: "Huge companies make superior products to handcrafted products." or " Other countries make this product better than we can."
I have to go to a real job but watch out for people posing as passionate individuals, they might be getting paid to make you think that.
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Disingenuous and organized effort.
Fri, May 25, 2007 - 4:20 PMThis takes a while but is a great read. This is an account of a online guerilla marketer.
www.escapistmagazine.com/issue/62/4
There is another amazing article in adbusters about how they operate. -
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Re: Disingenuous and organized effort.
Sat, May 26, 2007 - 3:25 AMI am disappointed to hear this, I thought that the debate was based upon intellectual disagreement only.
I also see now that the denial of thujone is also a piece of cyclical (and cynical) market correction:
(i) Identify appropriate marketing demographic.
(ii) deliberately misinterpret the green fairy metaphor as hallucination by quoting obscure web references
(iiI) deny hallucination
(iv) deny thujone's effect
(v) classify absinthe as exclusive expensive luxury item, based upon marketing demographic.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk...nations.3F -
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Re: Disingenuous and organized effort.
Sat, May 26, 2007 - 11:43 AMThere is an important piece about thujone that is being left out. Thujone, even with out any claims, can be used as a marker of wormwood content. Since there are some who say that absinthe is an anise distillate primarily, what is to keep companies from adding practically NO wormwood? As the plant bakes in the sun all of the aroma dissipates, as the plant matures and then is cut and dried even less of the unique aroma survives. I may be cynical about the motives and methods used in industrial beverage industry, but it is easy to see why beverage producers would want to make this as cheep and easy for themselves. I understand that there are disreputable people that sell oil mix as true absinthe and there will always be people who throw a handful of dried flowered wormwood sticks into some pastis. -
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Re: Disingenuous and organized effort.
Sat, May 26, 2007 - 1:15 PM
Right, one would hardly ask "Joe The Camel" about tobacco! I see your point. -
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Re: Disingenuous and organized effort.
Sun, May 27, 2007 - 5:34 PM
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Re: What defines absinthe?
Thu, June 14, 2007 - 7:25 AMWell while you were blustering about psuedo-racist remarks and challenges I was on a plane to London and then Rome on a vacation which included getting away from this. Ok now, what would you like me to provide? What are you suggesting hasn't been written? Do you have any problems with the sources I provided in the early definition or will that be ignored? Where did I quote Dr. O?
It should be noted Grim seemed to want opinions with sources, not arguments. -
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Re: What defines absinthe?
Thu, June 14, 2007 - 6:39 PMThere has been a bit of sidetracking. We haven't really clarified the definition as much as I may have liked, but even an absence of a unified definition is revealing. -
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Re: What defines absinthe?
Thu, June 14, 2007 - 7:29 PMMore clarity in what parts looking for you are?
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