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Hi Folks, I have a few questions…but first some basic project info...here goes. I am building a sudo recumbent trike. It will have a reclined bench seat. I would like the bike to hold three people…lets average the weight at 150 lbs each. Center seat is purely passenger outside people are the peddlers. My design will take two standard MTB frames, cut off everything forward of the seat tube/bottom bracket…remove the bottom bracket guts and then run a pipe through the empty bottom brackets…space the rear bike assemblies about 48 inches apart and weld the brackets to the pipe. There will be a sudo box frame built off this ‘rear end’ and then I will use one of the front ends from the donor MTB’s and attach it to front center of the box frame. There will be much stuff in between to make it work…so now my questions.
1) My guestimate for total weight is 450lbs in peeps, 125lbs in trike and maybe 20lbs in stuff…let’s call is 600lbs. Will standard MTB rear stays, 26” wheels and front fork support this kind of weight in a trike configuration?
2) When I attach the front fork assembly should I keep the head angle the same as it was on the original donor bike?
3) Any opinions on using an electric hub on the front wheel to help move this heap with three lazy lard asses on it?
4) Last but not least…what color should I paint it?
Thanks for listening and any constructive suggestions you may have :) Stirling
1) My guestimate for total weight is 450lbs in peeps, 125lbs in trike and maybe 20lbs in stuff…let’s call is 600lbs. Will standard MTB rear stays, 26” wheels and front fork support this kind of weight in a trike configuration?
2) When I attach the front fork assembly should I keep the head angle the same as it was on the original donor bike?
3) Any opinions on using an electric hub on the front wheel to help move this heap with three lazy lard asses on it?
4) Last but not least…what color should I paint it?
Thanks for listening and any constructive suggestions you may have :) Stirling
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Re: Trike Build Questions for those that have been there already...
Wed, April 2, 2008 - 9:17 PMAlso...I was thinking of using two inch square tubing for the box frame...any comments on tubing wall thickness?
Thanks :) Stirling -
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Re: Trike Build Questions for those that have been there already...
Thu, April 3, 2008 - 6:39 AMMost inportant first.
Satin Black. It shows the dust best.
Will think about the rest. -
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Re: Trike Build Questions for those that have been there already...
Thu, April 3, 2008 - 8:12 AM2" square tubing should be plenty big. you could even do thinwall- it would be strong enough. but that's going to be expensive and kick you up into cromoly land.
If you use doublewall 26" rims you will prolly be alright. another option is 24" wheels- they can be a little stronger, but I'd still use doublewalls.
Two 26" mtn bike frame ganged together should be able to handle the weight. Pedalling it is another issue entirely. make sure you gear it down with a triple crank (lower ned cranks typically have a 28th small inner chainring- higher end cranks can go as low as 22t, which are removable)and a wide range freewheel or cassette. Shimano and Sunrace both have 6,7,8,and 9 speed versions with a 34th cog.
If you use an electric motor with abtteries, Gate may declare it to be a motorized vehicle which will require a registering it ahead of time with DMV. if it has a motor and a seat, you need to do that. electric bikes defintely fall into that category. -
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Added Question: max width for street legal trike?
Thu, April 3, 2008 - 10:28 AMThanks TomCat and Lightman, Gearing...I am using the gearing off the MTB's triple chainrings up front and a 6 & 7 cogset out back...I haven't looked at the actual tooth count but they are older MTB's so I would think that the ratio spread should be reasonable. Any thoughts on head angle? Oh and one more question does anyone know the actual width a trike can have and still be legal to ride on the street? I am considering putting the peddlers together and making a rear facing passenger seat to get things a bit narrower...
Satin black paint...maybe with silver and gold stars...but I was kinda thinking of white with black cow patches...hummm.
Thanks! Sterling :) -
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Re: Added Question: max width for street legal trike?
Thu, April 3, 2008 - 1:05 PMRe: trike width- how wide is a hummer? trikes, like bicycles are allowed the use of the full lane. So take up the entire gauge of the road if you can!
Head angle- adult trikes usu have a slacker head tube angle and more fork rake (offset). But I wouldn't worry too much about it. choppers work with all sorts of crazy angles and still function. -
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Re: Added Question: max width for street legal trike?
Fri, April 4, 2008 - 6:08 AMHead angle, 65 to 75ish.
I build hundred of bikes but never a trike until last year.
Keep it low or super wide. As you go up with the cg the roll over rate goes up as well.
When seated I wanted to be about eye to eye to passer-bys & ended up haveing to use out riggers since the cg got so high! -
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Re: Added Question: max width for street legal trike?
Fri, April 4, 2008 - 9:09 AMThanks again TomCat & Lightman for the inputs. With the head angle I just didn't want to put extra stress on the forks since they will be handling quite a bit more load than they normally would...plus I didn't want to have to gorilla my steering to get the thing to turn :) In regards to height...I would like my eyes to be about breast hei...uhm...I mean about mid torso level so I think the cg will still be pretty reasonable. My rear wheels will be just slightly outboard of my butt position so I think it will work out ok. I will try and post a couple line drawings later today if I get time to finish them up. I started cutting up frames the other day...what a weird feeling. I am always trying to fix bikes up for everyone not cut them apart...it was very weird but fun... -
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Here are the two designs...
Fri, April 4, 2008 - 1:31 PMThese are the two designs that I am debating...I can see benefits and drawbacks to both versions. For obvious reasons I am leaning toward the 3 peeps in a row design. Any comments? And yes, I realize I haven't drawn the front end yet...haven't figured out how I am going to do that yet ;)
people.tribe.net/1980d609-...d10bc9d876
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Back to the electric assist question...
Sun, April 6, 2008 - 8:54 PMTomCat, you said that having electric assist would require a permit at BM. I read the info on the BM site and it pretty much says that if it is not art or a medical necessity its not allowed (but I would think of my trike as a work of art!...but they probably wouldn't see it that way.) Anyway, I was wondering if I installed a 'pedelec' version of an electric hub would it make a difference...I figure you know what that is but just in case...it only allows the hub to assist you when you are peddling. Then again...having experienced the front gate ordeal how would they know what to look for and would they care...they would see the electric hub and my beautiful trike would sit in the corner for the duration of the event :( Ok, I guess I have answered my own question...I will start doing a bunch of hill climbs with 75lbs of weight in my camel pack for a couple months prior to BM...arrrg... -
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Re: Back to the electric assist question...
Mon, April 7, 2008 - 7:48 AMI've had a couple of trikes -- one weighed about 250 lbs, the other about 180. You can pedal anything if you work the gear reduction right. Granted, my top speed in those things has been about 5-7 mph, but you don't really need to go fast. -
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Gearing
Mon, April 7, 2008 - 10:00 AMHi Dave, Yep, I decided that I will use my intermediate/alignment shaft as a reduction set up...I have stripped two chainring assemblies apart and I will put the middle chainring on the peddlers side of the shaft and the small chainring on the on the rearend side of the shaft...this should give me a pretty good reduction accross the board. As you said...it doesn' t need to be fast :)
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Re: Back to the electric assist question...
Mon, April 7, 2008 - 10:53 AMAll art cars are registered. If it has a seat and a motor it needs to be registered with DMV ahead of time.
That said, there are exceptions. Have you contacted DMV- what do they say?
Personally, I think it would be OK, and I mention the technical points as a cautionary tale. I volunteered at DMV a couple of years ago and they were interested in regulating motorized (gas and electric) vehicles that carried passengers. Your trike with a front electric hub is in the grey area. It's not going to be too fast, but you'd be surprised how out of control those things are when overloaded, underlit and piloted by someone who is a little drunk. a 500lb vehicle hurts when it taps another bike or pedestrian.
How are you planning to charge or fuel the motor? Generator at your camp?
I saw many goped riders eat shit because they hit a dune at night while drunk. broken collarbones and road rash. A few collisions with bikes and pedestrians and even art installations. The playa speed limit is 5mph max. The only exceptions are emergency and other first responder vehicles. (and larrys golf cart). I rangered in 2007 and was on the Intercept Team, catching up with huge art cars doing much more than 5mph, reminding them to keep it reasonable ,and be glad they are talking to a ranger and not BLM or sherrifs- someone who would impound their car and take away their default world licence and face possible arrest because of alcohol in the driver compartment.
just cover your ass with the registration details of making your trike a little more convenient. Talk to DMV. If they feel it's a grey area out of their control, then yer good. If they want to provide you a sticker, then take it. -
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Re: Back to the electric assist question...
Mon, April 7, 2008 - 11:04 PMHi TomCat, Thanks for taking the time to write all that info up..it is appreciated :) I will email the DMV and ask them what they think about a pedelec hub. Oh and I meant no ill will to the gate folks...but they have a job to do, not much time to do it in and I would imagine that their training would dictate that they err on the side of safety...ie take it off the streets before it hurts somebody. I would hope that my trike and its driver (me) will be on the safe side at all times...lazy but safe and the older I get it seems the less I drink these days. Oh...in regards to charging the batteries...I installed a few solar cells on my RV...I would most likely get a second set of batteries and let them charge while I use the other set...a daily rotation thing. I don't like running a generator...last year the only time mine got started was for about an hour during Thursday's sand storm...eight people in a two people RV having an impromptu brown out party can get pretty toasty quick with everything closed up...there are times when AC is a god send! As for speed...as I noted to Dave...I am going to do a major gear reduction I think about 30% that should put me in the 2mph slow poke class without the assist and maybe in the 4 mph speedster class with the assist! If the DMV says it's ok we will give it a go :) -
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Re: Back to the electric assist question...
Tue, April 8, 2008 - 9:58 AMIn case there is any interest, this is the reply from the DMV..., "If the vehicle uses any sort of non-human power it will require a license
(with the exception of go-ped like scooters)." Short and not really very sweet but it does answer the question. I wonder if my caged wheels with a pack of buff running rapid gerbals would need a license... -
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Re: Back to the electric assist question...
Tue, April 8, 2008 - 11:58 AMSince no animals (aside from Humans) are allowed on the playa, I doubt you'd ever need to worry about it.
and you'd need a ton of gerbils to power a 450lb trike. -
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Re: Back to the electric assist question...
Tue, April 8, 2008 - 7:11 PMIn which case, it would then weigh 2,450 lbs and you'd have a hell of a time getting it there. -
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The build...
Sat, April 12, 2008 - 8:38 PMOk no gerbals...I started building today. It was a slow process between tacking things together then grinding my tacks out because my welds sucked then finally getting what I think is a good weld bead going. I got the primary runners done and I cleaned up the first of the rear ends. Hopefully I will have the rear end complete tomorrow and the cranks on. I need to build up a temp seat so I can get the placement of the cranks right. I can make my seats adjustable for about 3-5" is it worth the effort of building the adjustable brackets? Anyway heres a picture of day one people.tribe.net/1980d609-...c9ab04f95b Tomorrow will be the torque test...if the rear ends gunna fail I want it to happen in my garage not on the Playa! I am going to put the front rails on a crate and jump up and down on the main rear cross bar and see if she holds... -
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Re: The build...
Sun, April 13, 2008 - 6:28 PMFor those that want to know...torque test is complete...and it has passed!!! With two adults and a kid on board the rear stays seemed to flex a bit but nothing twisted or broke. We didn't go ballistic on it just light bouncing to simulate playa washboard. Unfortunately I didn't get to the cranks...by the time I made a temp seat and figured out that my intermediate/alignment shaft needed to be relocated it was just getting too late :( Maybe next weekend... -
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Re: The build...
Mon, April 14, 2008 - 12:21 PMcool- just a reminder to check in with DMV if you plan to have some kind of motor assist. -
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It's Kinda alive...
Sun, April 20, 2008 - 7:55 PMTomCat, if it all works out and I have time I will make mounts for some articulated nightime butterfly wings...I got some ideas about it...if I make them then I will go with the power assist and sign up with the DMV...if not I am going with peddle power and leaving the electric at home :(
Anyway for those that are interested I got the front end on this weekend...I was a little off at the muffler shop so instead of being level it is about an inch high in the front end...oh well. I have the alignment for the drive line figured out now and one side temped in. Here are some pics...
people.tribe.net/1980d609-...1c5b9634ba
people.tribe.net/1980d609-...8d9bf26d3f
people.tribe.net/1980d609-...67697ff1d6
Seems kind of quiet in the trike tribe...hope my posts aren't putting folks to sleep ;) -
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Long weekend with little to show...
Sun, April 27, 2008 - 9:32 PMI worked on the trike three solid days and I feel like I have nothing to show for it. It is all the small stuff that takes the time. I am also very disapointed with the way the seats are set up but I am going to finish it with the current design and then go back and modify it to put the reduction/alignment gears under the main rails and drop the seats down to the top of the main rails before BM. I still haven't put the gussets in at the old seat tubes/bottom brackets but I will get to it. I have two derailleurs coming that will be installed to take up the play in the front drive chain...derailleurs ($10) are cheaper than tensioners ($60)...go figure. I will order the hiem joints and connection rods for the steering tomorrow...I have two more tabs to weld on to complete the steering. I figure two more full days to get it done if I don't run into any snags. I did sit on it and peddle a few feet before the chain would come off...it is a little unstable as a single seater...thats why I want to get the seats lower. Even though I put a lot of hours in this weekend I still smile each time I sit on it...it's just too cool...allready thinking about the next one >_< doh!
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Re: Long weekend with little to show...
Mon, April 28, 2008 - 2:01 PMcool to see it alive! can't wait to see what the steering linkage will look like. A chain and some coaster brake or fixed cogs jammed ont he threaded steerer might do the same as those heim joints..... -
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Re: Long weekend with little to show...
Mon, April 28, 2008 - 6:10 PMThought about the chain steering but I was thinking the trike would leave less chain marks on clothing if I avoided as many of them as I could out in the open. On another note...I ordered a couple of small gears and shoulder bolts along with the heim joints today...I want to flop the gears under the frame NOW...I just can't leave them on top I hate it! So hopefully the next pics will be after the swap...
Wow not even done and it's redesign time lol..
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Unsu...
Re: Trike Build Questions for those that have been there already...
Sat, May 3, 2008 - 9:44 PMMany folks planning to make the sojourn to Black Rock are asking lots of questions and seeking clarification around the myriad issues that make coming to the event both challenging and rewarding. One of the most repeated requests for clarification has to do with issues related to mutant vehicles and the current policies regarding registration and approval of them. Take a look through the linked album and text and click on "next" to take a trip back in playa vehicle history at Black Rock City.
tribes.tribe.net/bmmv/phot...2e725f39ed
The simple addition of a propulsion motor to a cart, bicycle or wheeled contraption will initiate a requirement for pre-application and a DMV invitation, in order for the vehicle to be allowed through the event gate.
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Re: Trike Build Questions for those that have been there already...
Sun, May 4, 2008 - 7:55 PMThanks for the info Red...I think my gearing will work out just fine so I won't be worrying about the electric hub. I went at it again this weekend…I cut off my seat brackets (didn’t like them!), dropped the alignment/reduction gears under the rails, added an idler sprocket, installed the front tensioner (ok they are $10 derailleurs), hooked up my steering linkage <-- don’t like it but it is working…going to have to think about it a bit and last but not least peddled it in circles in front of my house!!! I would have to say it has been more work than I thought it was going to be so far but I have really been pushing to get it done…I wanted to use it this coming weekend but alas there is still just too much left to do on it…oh well. I am starting to think my neighbors are going to lynch me soon if I don't stop all the metal working from 8am to 6pm other than that I am having a good time... Any thoughts about it so far?
people.tribe.net/1980d609-...d81bbd7053
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Unsu...
Re: Trike Build Questions for those that have been there already...
Sun, May 4, 2008 - 9:07 PMI'm glad to see more people enjoying the unrestricted and limitless opportunity in creating human powered vehicles for the playa.
Cheers to you -
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Re: Trike Build Questions for those that have been there already...
Sun, June 1, 2008 - 6:24 PMNow that I am back from a Ren Faire and LIB I am back at it (<--by the way LIB was great :) I repositioned my steering linkage so it wouldn't over steer now it works pretty good but I think in the long run I will want to replace the aluminum push rods with steel...I think these might bend if I hit a bump at just the wrong time people.tribe.net/1980d609-...4f98e08748 I added a second seat to the rig (one more to go) this time I made the base plate out of 3/16ths steel...it is much stronger...I will have to go back and change the first seat to 3/16ths people.tribe.net/1980d609-...6cc66b5020 I temp installed the front brake but it really is useless with this much weight...now I know why people go to disk brakes...but with all three brakes going I think it will be ok at the speeds I will be going. Last but not least I figured out that when I installed my idler gears I should have rotated them back to get them as low as possible for the seat clearance...I will have to reposition them next weekend people.tribe.net/1980d609-...f308685934 So next weekend I should be able to wrap up the welding and such...all need to do is complete the third seat, rotate the idlers, install passenger foot rests, replace the seat base plate on the first seat and fabricate/install my seat stay gussets. Ok maybe two more weekends before I get to painting...doh! -
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Re: Trike Build Questions for those that have been there already...
Mon, June 2, 2008 - 5:37 AMAre the round tubes that attach the head tube and down to the sq. frame tubes aluminum? If so, I suggest you add tubes from the top of the headset back to the frame to make a triangle. Or even better straight back & down to the center sq. tube.
All the weight is transfering to the 90 degree bend just in front of the attachment to the sq. frame tubes.
My 2cents. Looks great though & can't wait to see it dusty. -
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Re: Trike Build Questions for those that have been there already...
Mon, June 2, 2008 - 9:02 AMThe round tube that ties the front end together is 1 3/4 mild steel muffler pipe...it is aluminized that is why it looks like aluminum. I am not too worried about the structural strength of the bends...I don't see any flex in this area...I am worried about the piss poor welding around the fork tube...courtesy of yours truly. I haven't decided yet but I may go back and change the way I did that...after it breaks of course. The other weak spot is the seat tube to bottom bracket attachment...this is where all the torque goes when the 450lbs of lard asses are sitting on it...after I rotate the idler gears back I am going to gusset that area. -
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Re: Trike Build Questions for those that have been there already...
Sun, June 8, 2008 - 4:49 PMOk quick addition...I relocated the idler gears and installed the seat tube gussets. She is real close to being done now...I need to cap the open tubing...add two braces...put in cables for the brakes/shifters and one more seat bracket to build...then its all up to Mr. Krylon to make it purdy :) Once its done I will start thinking about moding it for a sun shade or maybe the butterfly wings or both...I want to test it for a while first!
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Re: Trike Build Questions for those that have been there already...
Mon, June 9, 2008 - 5:53 PMHave you added up the total number of gears?
Very important given where you are headed with it. -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Trike Build Questions for those that have been there already...
Mon, June 9, 2008 - 7:59 PMOk I will try and answer but I am a bit rough on figuring this out...the drivers low gearing is 28 chain ring to mid shaft 26/20 to rear big gear 28. So I got this...28/26=1.07 and 20/28=.714 so .714x1.07=.763 I guess this means that each time the front chain ring moves around 1 time the rear wheel will move about 3/4's of a rotation and in practice it does so I guess I can’t be that far off in my calculations…I originally thought I would have about a 30 percent reduction and it worked out to about 25 percent for the driver. The left hand peddler is a little easier with 28f to 23/17mid to 30r which worked out to .688. Either way in low gear it is pretty easy to peddle even going up hill. I am going to do some test riding and if I find I need it a little lower I have a couple larger chain rings I can weld up to put in the front side of the mid shaft. As far as gear count it would still be the same as the donor bikes (driver 18spd/passenger 21spd.) Let me know if I have my math all screwed up or not :) -
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Re: Trike Build Questions for those that have been there already...
Sat, June 28, 2008 - 7:57 PMShe is almost ready! I have two brackets to weld on and...<cough> one broken weld to repair. After getting the third seat on I loaded up three peeps and started rolling around...I heard a pop but couldn't figure out what happened for a long time when I notice that my wheel was moving more to the right than the left...I had a piss poor weld on the pivot point of my steering (where both heim joints mount) and it broke so the assembly was tweaking inboard while steering. Nice that it wasn't a catastrophic failure and nice that it happened at home and not on the playa! I will be grinding that out tomorrow and rewelding it...I figure about three more hours of welding then I start the disassembly process for painting...I hate painting. Oh I added a gusset to the fork tube...you can see it in this pic.
people.tribe.net/1980d609-...c28ce0ae95
I really wanted a little extra insurance on the fork assembly... Stirling :) -
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Re: Trike Build Questions for those that have been there already...
Sun, June 29, 2008 - 8:53 PMSo I finished all the welding today including strengthening my steering pivot and capping all my tubes...cleaned everything up and said to myself...ok its all paint and reassembly now. Then my neighbor walks by and says, "Why didn't you gusset the bottom of your fork tube too?" All I could say was, "I got lazy?" SO now I have been thinking about it all night and I know that I will have to go back and make that darn bottom fork tube gusset before I can paint it! Not really that big of a deal I guess I will still be painting next weekend. So the next Pic you see it will have a color on it and no I still haven't decided what that color will be. -
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Re: Trike Build Questions for those that have been there already...
Sun, June 29, 2008 - 9:04 PMOh and just in case anyone wanted to know...the frame weighs about 48 lbs, running gear 38lbs, wheels 19lbs, seats 30lbs and stuff 5lbs. I estimated 150lbs when I started...140lbs is pretty close. -
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Re: Trike Build Questions for those that have been there already...
Mon, June 30, 2008 - 7:04 AMcan't wait to see photos of the finished bike/trike/quad.
next year, install a flamethrower. -
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Re: Trike Build Questions for those that have been there already...
Sat, July 19, 2008 - 6:57 PMDrums please....it's done. I will be tweaking a couple things here and there but overall the trike is finished. She does pretty good...the brakes are a bit weak and the steering needs some fine tuning but she is ready to be dressed up for BM. Let me know what you think. I will try to post the final picture to the group...not sure how to yet but I will give it a shot.
people.tribe.net/1980d609-...c90be8da2e
Stirling :) -
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Re: Trike Build Questions for those that have been there already...
Sun, July 20, 2008 - 12:09 PMIts gorgeous!!! Can't wait to see it in action! -
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Re: Trike Build Questions for those that have been there already...
Sun, July 20, 2008 - 7:56 PMThank you Linda! First stop will be the Big Bear City Renaissance Faire...we are going to try and use it for commuting between our camp and the faire. Second stop will be the playa...with 20lbs of lights attached. I look forward meeting up with as many Triker's as I can find! Hopefully I will see you and the "The Dream Streaker" out there!
Stirling :)
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