I am sorry If I came off harsh in my above thread. I am just very frustrated. I know you put time into writing the threads, but I have seen all the videos before with the exception of the girl in her bedroom, I have seen them actually several times. I Own every single article written by artie, and read the ones she has posted on line. I have taken workshops on Romani dance etc. It is just hard when you are compiling something to find the NOT Romani things. What I am trying to say is, I have a large vocab of WHAT Romani dance is, and who they are. That is not the problem for me, What is the problem is finding the factual NOT Romani things. I do not want to teach this class and say Turkish Romani DO NOT DO SKIRT WORK, then all my students say well we took the workshop with so and so, and she taught us this. I want to make sure I am 100% before I say WELL GUESS WHAT STOP DOING IT AND CALLING IT ROMANI. It is ok to dance that but call it what it is fantasy. I want to be confident in saying that, that is all I am trying to do here, So sorry if my frustration came out in the thread above.

I teach Rom dance in various US places, because...well, I AM Romani, so I feel I can legitimately add my two cents here.

I have seen some CRAPTASTIC supposed Romani style dancers. And, no, not all have been gadje (outsiders)--I have a full blooded cousin who is just an atrocious Roma dancer--oy! This is the thing--anyone who wants to teach Romani dance needs to understand that 80% of what is out there is NOT Romani dance. Not, not, not. There are 3 or 4 DVD's out there that make my skin CRAWL.

The good Romani dancers that I've personally seen? Artemis Mourat. Ling Shien Bell (people tend to overlook that she is also a dancer, and a damned good one). Elisabeth Strong. Kitiera. Simona Jovic. I am the only one I know of in the US who does Eastern European Rom. Only one of the above is Roma, and that'd be me. So this shoots that rumor that only Romani should teach Romani dance. These women are phenomenal, true to culture Romani dancers, none of which are part of the culture by blood, but are accepted as authentic dancers. So, Annwyn, you will hear that only Romani should teach Romani dance. Not true. However, I do stand by the fact that if you only learned from DVD's and took a workshop or two (not you personally---this is just a general statement), you have NO RIGHT to teach Romani dance, or ANY sort of dance, and to promote yourself as a professional in that field. Hell, I lived in Egypt, I have taken Egyptian dance seminars and done Egyptian DVD's. I would never dream of teaching it because I have not fully immersed myself and studied it, you know? I have never seen Marguerite, Mira Betz, or some others dance whom I have heard do Romani style, so I cannot comment; their exclusion was in no way a slam on them. I simply just have not seen them in person.

Many Romani do not teach their dance authentically to outsiders b/c there is still that belief of not trusting outsiders. I do teach what my culture and my family taught me for one driving force reason--the last speaker of Bohemian Romipen died in the 1970's, and my line of Russoles Czech Roma are dying out fast, as is our dance and our original language. Hence, when I teach, I teach the difference between the styles of Roma dance, and also some language--to hope to keep those lines alive.

Turkish do not touch their skirts except in a brushing gesture. Czech Roma DO use skirt, but it's often one sided and asymmetrical. Spanish Roma use it as many of us use zills--an intregal part of the dance. Simona has a fantastic breakdown on her site (www.simonajovic.com). Across the line, there is a common thread, though, of that there is always that line of improvisation because live music always changes, your mood always changes, and the songs are never played the same way twice. Look up the song Jelem and see HOW many ways it is played.

Annwyn, the only other advice I can give you is this: ask LOTS of questions to those who know what actual Romani dance is. E-mail Artemis. Pick a song that is NOT Rompi Rompi (oh my God if i hear that song ONE MORE time at Rakkasah......), and if there are lyrics, make sure you know what it means. Case in point: read the lyrics to Jelem, which is our 'official anthem.' The lyrics are easily found in English and Romipen, but really do sum up what we have been through, and the song's hushed beginnings to an almost exuberant rousing battle cry of "stand up, stand up Roma!" I have seen it danced as a happy dance, as the lyrics go, "We have seen our members slaughtered by the Black" (not Black people--it's a reference to the Nazi party). I just grimace.

You and I have e-mailed in the past, and I know you researched and I know you're knowledgable. I'm sure it will be a great seminar, but don't base Turkish Rom just upon the data or dancing of one--make sure you go through a wide and varied path. Kostana Sidwell in DC is also a super resource, so is Reyhan, whom Kostana brings to the US. If you need anything else, or their contact info, e-mail me at romdeussen at romdeussen dot com.

Well Astrid ... my point was ... the the heavy-duty skirt-swirling, "skirt work", "skirt dancing" is really a Western or American thing NOT Turkish or Rom

That style originated in the USA "melting pot" NOT Turkey or Asia or Eastern Europe

US dancers pull moves from Indian Dance ... and poi and such from SW Pacific dances..

Mexico is part of N American and in fact a large chunk of the SW USA was once part of Mexico..

Dalia refers to the style as WORLD FUSION or "Gypsy Fantasy" = she makes it very clear that she uses stuff from *everywhere*

A USA "bellydancer" using skirt moves from Mexico seems no stranger than a USA "bellydancer" swinging around poi - and we see that all the time.

IF the skirt-swirling we see in Western Fantasy Dance is NOT part of traditional Turkish Rom -- then -- where do you think it comes from??

here is the link:
japan.tribe.net/event/Turk...8fc1de826ef
don't worry about the time, that is a misprint (7am? no way!)

right...I was just noting maybe this is where the dancers picked the moves up from...

amoungst other places i am sure, Dalia learned Turkish dance in a natural manner, from Omar Faruk Tekbileks wife Suzie, in their home. She knows her Turkish stuff. In her first video she explains what `Dunyavi Gypsy` style is exactly, her blending of many styles, and of her deep respect for Romani culture. She is a true artist, and dynamic performer, unfortuanately many less developed dancers who attempt Dalia`s style, fail to capture the power or convey the magic and energy that is Dalia.

obviously not. They are Rajasthani. Indian gypsies. We already hit ont he fact that skirt work is more popular in other countries than Turkey.