I intend for no argument either, but some of my words here are very strong. Take it for what it is, simply, as you speak what the world speaks, and a retort from one whom has stood in the face of that for years... and making friends and brother's and sisters that truly lived in bondage that the 'church' wouldn't even dare extend a hand to help out with... instead... resort to judgments and persecutions...... I'm sure that angers the Christ more than it does me. It is, His bride.

Your confusing the mainstream crap for real people choosing to stand in the gap for other, real people. And might I add that the verses that you quoted have little to do with what we're told to do in such matters. The apostles were told to go and teach what they were taught. To show others to do what they could do. Because of the Christ, and that is the what the true church is. I"m curious what you consider 'church teaching' since most of the 'churches' today have decisively chosen to judge each other, and thus... well... Christ spoke a lot about those who judge.

And the religious institution then hated it just as much as they'd hate to hear it today.


Who said anything about fear? And, what of the message consistent throughout all scripture? You bring scripture about an angel's deed, but what about the commission and commandment given to us?

Are you unaware of the ones that tell us how and why to resist the devil? Have you not heard that it is a war for our mind? What about for others around us who do not have the Spirit of God within them? How then do we 'wage warfare against everything that would establish itself against the knowledge of God in their hearts?' (those 3 sentences were three scriptures that I'm sure someone else here can quote chapter and verse, but they are still what they are even though I didn't memorize the scriptures in a grid fashion)

Anyone who uses those scriptures to explain their warfare against the enemy, is not making any kind of effective 'warfare', and further more haven't the faintest clue what's happening around them in the world today.... because the deeds and actions of the realm of the spirit are constantly changing just like each passing day of your life. People who involve themselves in spiritual things, are also, just as much involving in a constantly changing experience, like our daily lives. Most Christians today don't even bother to attempt speak even the simplest healing into reality for those around them, or ask for it for others from the Father. (though, why excatly would we ask for the Father to do things He told US to do, is .... perhaps for another thread.)


You brought scriptures that a fallen world would cling to in order to advert their own eyes from the more direct scriptures on the matter.
Your second round of scriptures brings into light, the troubles of the cross for us all. The persecutions and the trials that we endure for it, yet, it has nothing to do with how we would fashion our best attempts to make our stand. Like paul said, having DONE ALL, just TO STAND. When there are things pulling upon you and others around, you have to figure out ways to stand. Some find it through praise. Constant praise is almost like constant prayer. Only it's not really acting in the fact that we are crucified with the Christ. It's just worshiping the father. If we were here on earth ONLY to DWELL in worship, why are we put on earth, starting out separated from the Father we're here to worship? Why would he give us the ability to create as well? Why were were told at first to replenish the earth, name the animals, and subdue? It's more than just praise.

Guard yourself, because my next image isn't a pretty one, but it's just and due for the point being made.
Remember, the enemy comes only to kill, steal, and destroy, so the imagery used in the next line is extremely strong and graphic, but must be for the point to be made properly. I mean no offense by the next paragraph, but certainly, if your going to bring the issue up like this, lets look at it directly for a moment.

Certainly you wouldn't enter into worship if you looked out your window, and saw into the next door basement, your neighbor sodomizing a small child. No, you'd more than likely do something about it. There is something in us that 'clicks' to help the child in need. Now, imagine you looked over at your neighbor an hour before, and saw a dark cloud, just faintly visible, almost not there, come over his head and suddenly he starts cussing up a storm and spewing blasphemes left and right. What would you do? Would you enter into worship? Does that really seem fit for such a moment that one might see that? Would you go and call a pastor? Would you self-medicate? Would you look to anyone else? You wouldn't dare think to speak to that darkness and tell it to move would you? I mean, what authority would we have over the darkness, you know, us being crucified with the Christ and all... I'm sure, like your post here proclaims the rest of the luke warm world's moans, it would be the best idea to just meditate on how the arch--angel rebuked the devil in the Lord's name. That'd stop that man from letting that demon drive him into destroying the innocence of that child. sure. that's all sorts of 'warfare' and... helpful. Even bares the fruit of laziness if you ask me, because, certainly we are not our brother's keepers. And knowing now that the first dark cloud came over that man and lead him to do that to the child... the evil spirit driving that man, would you still judge the man, when even at the first, we are told to hate the sin, and not the sinner? So what happens when you know someone who sees these sorts of things daily? Do you call him a lunatic? Do you push them away? What is their crime? Making you feel uncomfortable? Making you fear? It is not fear to speak about someone with courage and a hope to understand what they see and how to deal with it. It is a tremendous crime to attempt to stop someone from exploring what the Lord would use those people in those ways for.

Did you know, that we have the ability to save that child from that damage? Would you like to understand what the deluded world calls warfare, or is this just a thread to attempt to write of the ones of us who dared to step up to the plate and become their brother's keeper? Because, that is excatly what it would sound like to me, though you made the statement that you weren't trying to start an argument, you were attempting to implore scriptures that have almost no relevance to say that people who stand their ground are doing the wrong thing ... I dare you to say those words to a mob of activists out protesting...

I'm sorry my words are so strong, but you do have to look at the opposing view.
So there's a very close and in your face look, because the warfare of this world is just that... it's close, in your face, and very very few even have the gut to stomach what satan does to God's people.

Though I'm certain you did not intend me to say something like that... and certainly, as you have put this post up to attempt to subtly warn others of the 'pitfalls' of standing against the enemy in others lives, the reality is, the stance of the world that you have quoted here, is a stumbling block to those that actively seek to

For instance, world likes to quote the first half of what Christ said here, but never, dares speak the second half. Such lukewarmness can be a very tragic thing here. Being that the believer was given the authority, and the Christ doesn't give authority so we can go bury it till He returns.

The Christ's last words on this earth.
Mark:16
14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.

15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
Note, 'the signs that follow the believers' and nothing about believers following after sings, like say for instance 'the virgin mary appearing in a water stain on some ceiling in peru'. Most people don't quote the last half of the great commission because they do not understand it, and in not understanding it, do not have their footing in truth on these matters to be able to stand in faith, and act upon them, nor... do they have VISION. The ability to see in to the spirit as paul or peter, did though, like any of us, 'even through a glass dimly'



check out "the screw-tape-letters' by C.S. lewis.

Or anything by Frank E. Pereti.

Geppy,

<And one must ask, if someone is truly possessed can they even be one of HIS foreordained chosen sheep? For we are promised that no one can take Jesus' sheep away from him, for they all know his voice and are known by him.>
The question is first, is there still such a thing as true demonic possession in the world.
If one answers "no" then further discussion is pointless.
I answer "yes"

The second question is can someone who had been demon possessed come to be a follower of Christ.
Again I answer "yes"
An example in Scripture is Mary Magdalene.
Mark 16:9Now after He [Jesus] had risen early on the first day of the week, He first appeared to Mary Magdalene, from whom He had cast out seven demons.

<Jude 9-10 (ASV)
"But Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing judgment, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. But these rail at whatsoever things they know not: and what they understand naturally, like the creatures without reason, in these things are they destroyed.">
<"Let every soul be in subjection to the higher powers: for there is no power but of God; and the powers that be are ordained of God. Therefore he that resisteth the power, withstandeth the ordinance of God: and they that withstand shall receive to themselves judgment.">
Do you take these to mean that everyone should submit to demons or they will "receive to themselves judgment"?
I do not.

If we are not to resist demonic powers, why is it written: "Resist the devil and he will flee from you" (James 4:7)
And again "The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you." (Romans 16:20)
So the question is Under whose feet will Satan be crushed, and how?
Paul was not writing to the angels.

Mark 16:17"These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons..."

How did Jesus cast out demons?
Matthew 17:18 And Jesus rebuked him, and the demon came out of him, and the boy was cured at once.

Luke 9:42 While he was still approaching, the demon slammed him to the ground and threw him into a convulsion. But Jesus rebuked the unclean spirit, and healed the boy and gave him back to his father.

<this concept of needing to war against the principalities seems to make light of the work that Jesus has already completed.>
2 Corinthians 10:3For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh, 4for the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh, but divinely powerful for the destruction of fortresses. 5We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ, 6and we are ready to punish all disobedience, whenever your obedience is complete.

Paul was not making light of the work that Jesus has already accomplished.
And neither do I.

Nor do I consider all "evil" or "displeasing" behavior the work of demons.

If there is no spiritual warfare, then why this post, is not this post it self a spiritual defense of Christianity? of a particular doctrine? I would agree with you that spiritual warfare is not attacking people different from us or hating the sin and not the sinner, which is another doctrine used and an excuse to hate others. But rather, the spiritual warfare that we fight is the battle to keep the path to god visible and unobscured, to defend the truth against lies and false accusations. To make clear the path of God .

Geppy>>> but one more thing that has been rattling in my brain this week. The modern day church, does it really worship the Creator of all things (El) - or is it still worshipping Baal but under a different name?

Smoke's clearing here too, enough I think to actually address something like this idea.

Doesn't ba'al mean many faces? I've been told that a lot over the years... how would I know for sure?

But the many headed 'hydra' in revelation?... on which the woman sat on...
the woman who was the mockery of satan's dominion over the world...
the mockery of a whore, compared to the Bride of the Christ...
for within the whore were people that should have been within the bride, as His will was for none to perish::

::the Holy Spirit reminds me from my youth the sudden remembrance of 'jim morrison' speaking at concerts about riding the snake::

This is yet another face of the ba'al mindset at the very least.


That's as far as I can extrapolate from what I understand about that... entity at this time, that it could very well be possible, in many many different faces