Advertisement
Logic tells me that a good person is one who does good without seeking reward. Someone who seeks reward for good is basically an employee, working for hire. Not good or bad, just an employee.
In the very small amount that Jesus said, this was actually something he said. Luk 6:35 "... and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again ..."
Most people seem to think they can do good, and that will get them into heaven. The problem is they are motivated by getting into heaven, and so they are seeking payment. That disqualifies their deeds, making them nothing but employees. Sort of like bribing God, to get to heaven.
Interesting logic, isn't it?
If a person thinks he or she is going to get paid, and doesn't get paid, that doesn't make that person a good person either. Perhaps a fool, but not a good person. Not a bad person either, just an employee who didn't get paid.
So if a person thinks he or she is entitled to Heaven, 'cause he or she did good deeds, that person won't necessarily go to Heaven.
Yet, it seems as if God wanted people to think they were going to get paid. Does this make God dishonest? Mothers lie to their children all the time. They know their children are not capable of understanding, so they try to get them to get the message across as best they can. It is not an attempt to deceive, but rather an attempt to achieve the closest understanding possible.
Doing good tends to lead to happy lives. Doing bad tends to lead to being miserable. It is that simple.
Payment is all that humans understand. It is the driving force in our society, and our society is what determines our behavior. It is not human nature to seek payment, but rather it is the nature of Capitalism. You are a product of your environment. Your environment is leading you to evil, maybe it is necessary to have something counteracting that.
God has no money. There is no Heaven, as you imagine it. God has nothing to give you, other than teaching you how to be happy. Heaven is merely symbolic of a happy marriage. Hell is symbolic of an unhappy marriage. Death is symbolic of marriage. It is all symbolism. What language would you expect God to speak?
Consider the logic in this: God put his son on Earth, than we killed his son, and somehow that is supposed to make God accept us into Heaven just because you know his son's name? If someone kills your kid, do you love that person because he or she knows your kid's name? The money/power system of our society killed Jesus. Judas killed Jesus for money. The priests killed Jesus for money and power. Herod killed Jesus for money and power. Just like people are destroying the Earth for money and power.
God loves you period. Hows that for logic? Whether or not you know Jesus name is irrelevant. However, knowing certain symbolic names of Jesus and their meanings, helps us to know how to save mankind. That allows us to be "saved".
God wanted people to think they were going to get paid, simply because at least at the time, people were not able to understand any other way. People are born good, but our society makes us bad. Society is an extremely strong force, which controls us. It is much stronger than peer pressure.
In fact, there is one reward that God has to offer us, but even now people don't understand it. That reward is simply life. God's purpose is to save mankind from nuclear war. We would have already had nuclear war, but God's been stalling for time. The churches had their purpose of simply spreading the word. They didn't understand the message, nor was it necessary for them to understand it. All that was necessary was for them to spread the message, and they were paid for that.
That purpose justifies the cost. Thousands of people dieing in holy wars, easily justified. If there was a better way, God would have done it.
Tony
In the very small amount that Jesus said, this was actually something he said. Luk 6:35 "... and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again ..."
Most people seem to think they can do good, and that will get them into heaven. The problem is they are motivated by getting into heaven, and so they are seeking payment. That disqualifies their deeds, making them nothing but employees. Sort of like bribing God, to get to heaven.
Interesting logic, isn't it?
If a person thinks he or she is going to get paid, and doesn't get paid, that doesn't make that person a good person either. Perhaps a fool, but not a good person. Not a bad person either, just an employee who didn't get paid.
So if a person thinks he or she is entitled to Heaven, 'cause he or she did good deeds, that person won't necessarily go to Heaven.
Yet, it seems as if God wanted people to think they were going to get paid. Does this make God dishonest? Mothers lie to their children all the time. They know their children are not capable of understanding, so they try to get them to get the message across as best they can. It is not an attempt to deceive, but rather an attempt to achieve the closest understanding possible.
Doing good tends to lead to happy lives. Doing bad tends to lead to being miserable. It is that simple.
Payment is all that humans understand. It is the driving force in our society, and our society is what determines our behavior. It is not human nature to seek payment, but rather it is the nature of Capitalism. You are a product of your environment. Your environment is leading you to evil, maybe it is necessary to have something counteracting that.
God has no money. There is no Heaven, as you imagine it. God has nothing to give you, other than teaching you how to be happy. Heaven is merely symbolic of a happy marriage. Hell is symbolic of an unhappy marriage. Death is symbolic of marriage. It is all symbolism. What language would you expect God to speak?
Consider the logic in this: God put his son on Earth, than we killed his son, and somehow that is supposed to make God accept us into Heaven just because you know his son's name? If someone kills your kid, do you love that person because he or she knows your kid's name? The money/power system of our society killed Jesus. Judas killed Jesus for money. The priests killed Jesus for money and power. Herod killed Jesus for money and power. Just like people are destroying the Earth for money and power.
God loves you period. Hows that for logic? Whether or not you know Jesus name is irrelevant. However, knowing certain symbolic names of Jesus and their meanings, helps us to know how to save mankind. That allows us to be "saved".
God wanted people to think they were going to get paid, simply because at least at the time, people were not able to understand any other way. People are born good, but our society makes us bad. Society is an extremely strong force, which controls us. It is much stronger than peer pressure.
In fact, there is one reward that God has to offer us, but even now people don't understand it. That reward is simply life. God's purpose is to save mankind from nuclear war. We would have already had nuclear war, but God's been stalling for time. The churches had their purpose of simply spreading the word. They didn't understand the message, nor was it necessary for them to understand it. All that was necessary was for them to spread the message, and they were paid for that.
That purpose justifies the cost. Thousands of people dieing in holy wars, easily justified. If there was a better way, God would have done it.
Tony
posted by:
|
Ukraine
|
Advertisement
Advertisement
-
Re: Seeking reward
Wed, October 7, 2009 - 5:29 PMI will have to disagree, all behavior is for reward. or why do it?If there is no reward in doing good, then you lose nothing by not being good. Jesus does not exclude reward but rather teaches that the righteous desire the reward of God rather then earthly rewards and treasure. Consider the following verses:
Mat 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
Mat 6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Mat 6:16 ¶ Moreover when ye fast, be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad countenance: for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
Mat 6:17 But thou, when thou fastest, anoint thine head, and wash thy face;
Mat 6:18 That thou appear not unto men to fast, but unto thy Father which is in secret: and thy Father, which seeth in secret, shall reward thee openly.
Mat 6:19 ¶ Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
Mat 6:20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
Mat 6:21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
>
We forgive, that we may be forgiven, we love and forgive others expecting good to judge us as we have judged others:
Luk 6:37 ¶ Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
Luk 6:38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.
_________________
Mat 7:1 ¶ Judge not, that ye be not judged.
Mat 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. ________
I the teachings of Christ there is expectation of reward, so what then seperates the righteous from the unrighteous? The difference is not that one seeks reward and the other does not, but that the righteous trust in God to deliver reward, in a form that is appropriate and worthy and the unrighteous, choose their own treasure of their own value and care not how they achieve it. Their path exists when one has no faith in God to be a fair judge.
Now I don't agree that getting into heaven is the reward we seek, our God is the God of the living the reward of Christians in the Kingdom of God which is alive now here in the world.
-
Re: Seeking reward
Wed, October 7, 2009 - 5:34 PM<The churches had their purpose of simply spreading the word. They didn't understand the message, nor was it necessary for them to understand it. All that was necessary was for them to spread the message, and they were paid for that.
That purpose justifies the cost. Thousands of people dieing in holy wars, easily justified. If there was a better way, God would have done it.
>
There is death and evil the world and yes it is all apart of Gods plan, but that doesn't exuse those who do evil the church is not absolved because it's evil falls into Gods plan for the world those that destroy the earth will be judged. And it was not the church that spread the word of God but those members of the kingdom of God who hear the word of God and do it. The churches of he world have ever been our enemy and will come to full power in the time of the antichrist. -
-
Re: Seeking reward
Thu, October 8, 2009 - 1:14 AMMany believe that the reward is going to Heaven. Some of those believe that God's plan is to destroy the world and harvest mankind. Those are willing to actually push the button and destroy mankind, because they think it is God's plan. To them, the reward of eternal life is of more interest than life on Earth.
In fact, when I was talking with such people, they actually said I was doomed to hell for trying to save mankind, and then tried to covert me to save my soul.
You are obviously not one of those, 'cause you believe the reward is on Earth.
There's two types of workers. One likes the work. The work fullfills him or her. The amount of payment recieved is not so important to such people. The reward is the work itself. Job satisfaction, pride, etc. That is the reward for such people.
The other type of worker works for payment. That type of worker hates the work. Goes to work, drudges through the work day doing as little as possible, then waits by the time clock for the time to punch out.
The same is true for Heaven. The first type enjoy life, and whether or not heaven exists is irrelavent, they don't seek such reward. The other type drudges through life seeking the reward of heaven, and waiting to punch out.
I say enjoy life. Money is nothing but paper. Heaven is a fantasy.
Tony -
-
Re: Seeking reward
Thu, October 8, 2009 - 7:38 PM<Many believe that the reward is going to Heaven. Some of those believe that God's plan is to destroy the world and harvest mankind. Those are willing to actually push the button and destroy mankind, because they think it is God's plan. To them, the reward of eternal life is of more interest than life on Earth.
>
I believe that the fate of human government is sealed and that the temperate shall inherit the earth. This may all be apart of Gods plan, but that doesn't excuse those that do evil.
<In fact, when I was talking with such people, they actually said I was doomed to hell for trying to save mankind, and then tried to covert me to save my soul.
>
In what way would you save mankind? A Chirstian is like a man on a lifeboat crying out to those on a sinking ship, "come with me! and live!" the voice of the antichrist says "stay we can fix the ship!" Those that stay will die, for the ship it self is made from inferior wood. The life boat is Jesus, the ship is government of man, otherwise known as "the beast." Those that worship the beast shall share in its judgement. If you can not choose who will be saved you can only tell people the truth and hope that they recognize the voice of God speaking through you, many will not.
<
There's two types of workers. One likes the work. The work fullfills him or her. The amount of payment recieved is not so important to such people. The reward is the work itself. Job satisfaction, pride, etc. That is the reward for such people.
The other type of worker works for payment. That type of worker hates the work. Goes to work, drudges through the work day doing as little as possible, then waits by the time clock for the time to punch out.
The same is true for Heaven. The first type enjoy life, and whether or not heaven exists is irrelavent, they don't seek such reward. The other type drudges through life seeking the reward of heaven, and waiting to punch out.
I say enjoy life. Money is nothing but paper. Heaven is a fantasy.
>
Our God is the God of living to gain your life you must lose it. That is to experience what true life is, you must give up the petty desires of this world which are born of sin, The desire for wealth comes from a lack of trust in God to provide. Heaven is not a fantasy, but rather Heaven is available to one in physical life, one need not wait for physical death to experience it. A Christian is a citizen of the kingdom of God, and in their life is fullfilled the lords prayer::
Mat 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as [it is] in heaven.
Those that accept Christ, accept the Kingdom and the will of God is done in their lifes as it is in heaven.
Jesus delivered the kingdom through his word, it is not some thing yet to be, though for not it is the domain of a chosen few, in the future the whole world with come to God. after those that worship the beast have destroyed themselves Consider these verses:
Luk 17:20 ¶ And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
Luk 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
______________
Jhn 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
Jhn 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
____________
Luk 11:19 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your sons cast [them] out? therefore shall they be your judges.
Luk 11:20 But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.
_________________
Luk 13:20 ¶ And again he said, Whereunto shall I liken the kingdom of God?
Luk 13:21 It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.
__________________
We Christians are the leaven, living a life of the expression of the love of Jesus, sacrificing ourselves as Jesus did, for good news of the kingdom of God. Many will hear our voice and convert, Many will not and will fall with tthe beast. In the end all will be leaven and Jesus will be known tto all as the lightening in the sky is seen to many. We will have no more need for kings, presidents and human leadership, we will all be brethren and we will all have the law of love written into our hearts, this, is true for us now, and soon true for the whole world. Consider these verses:
Luk 17:24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one [part] under heaven, shineth unto the other [part] under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.
Luk 17:25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.
Luk 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Luk 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed [them] all.
Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
_________________
Jer 31:33 But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
____________________
Jesus is the fulfillment of the latter verse.
-
-
Re: Seeking reward
Thu, October 8, 2009 - 11:54 PMJohn says: "We will have no more need for kings, presidents and human leadership, we will all be brethren and we will all have the law of love written into our hearts, this, is true for us now, and soon true for the whole world."
What you are describing is a new system of society. The Hippies dreamed of this also. Often when they used the term "love" they were referring to this system of society. They created shared income communes hoping to create their dream system of society. Their system was flawed, but it was very close to what Jesus intended. Likewise, Jesus' Apostles also created a shared income commune, which is described in the book of Acts.
The money based system of society is basically a selfish system. It teaches people to care for self, and since we are all a product of our environment we become selfish or greedy. The system rewards us for being greedy.
The other system is selfless. There is no reward for working. You work because you love the work and you love your community. Hence the term "love" is used to describe it. You want to do what is best for your community. That is what true love is, wanting what is best for someone or something.
Jesus' Apostles attempted this. The Hippies attempted this. Both were somewhat successful, but their system was flawed. Interestingly, the ants also attempted this, and they have been EXTREMELY successful.
To give an idea of how successful the ants have been at this, consider this: Human society existed for only a few thousand years. Ant society has existed and been maintaining ecological dominance for 60 million years. Ants are of almost no intelligence, yet ant societies are capable of incredible technological feats, such as several forms of agriculture.
Also, perhaps just a coincidence, but the Bible also mentions ants, saying:
Pro 6:6 Go to the ant, thou sluggard; consider her ways, and be wise:
Pro 6:7 Which having no guide, overseer, or ruler,
Pro 6:8 Provideth her meat in the summer, and gathereth her food in the harvest.
Now, consider what John says again, and compare it to those verses about ants: "We will have no more need for kings, presidents and human leadership, we will all be brethren and we will all have the law of love written into our hearts, this, is true for us now, and soon true for the whole world."
Ants have no leaders. The queen is purely a reproductive organ, not leadership. Her leadership is limited to temperature control, asking for food, and various other things strictly needed for reproduction. Many ant colonies have several queens, which would be impossible if they were leaders.
Tony -
-
Re: Seeking reward
Fri, October 9, 2009 - 5:50 AMOf course, ants also work without resting until they die and wage war with any nearby ants from a different colony that "smell" different ;)
-
Re: Seeking reward
Fri, October 9, 2009 - 11:15 AMAn ant colony is a good metaphor, each sharing in the same spirit yet working independantly at the task they are designed for. This is not something you can accomplish through politics, it must be in the heart of each individual. -
-
Re: Seeking reward
Sat, October 10, 2009 - 1:31 AMWe are a product of our environment, and the strongest influence in our environment is our society. In the right environment, it will be in the heart of each individual.
Ants work because they love to work. Ant wars are their form of population control. You have to remember that ants have had ecological dominance for 60 million years, and in that time they've likely maintained their population pretty steady at around 60 billion pounds. Ants do not destroy the environment, like we people do. Ant wars is a simple system which God chose to keep ant population in control.
Ants are ecologically dominate. There are no predators which stand any chance on controlling their population, so ants must control their own population. For ants, war just happens to be a very logical form of population control.
War is not part of their society. There is nothing about ant society which makes them seek war. War is simply a trait programmed into them, to get them to control their population. Like you said, they fight because of their scent is different. Not for money or power or anything like that. Their borders touch, therefore fight. That is pure population control warfare. They never have wars or crime or violence inside their society, it is only with outsiders.
Humans on the other hand, have wars for no rational reason. It is not for population control, it is simply for one or a small group of people to gain power. Humans also have crime and violence.
Humans learned agriculture 10,000 years ago, and since that time our population has been growing and growing and now it is about double or triple what can be sustained by our current form of society. Our only rational choice now is a new form of society.
Ants learned agriculture probably 60 million years ago, and their population grew to maximum probably within a thousand years or so, and then stabilized and maintained that level for 60 million years. You may think war is immoral, but it works for ants.
Humans, likely will not need any form of population control. The new form of society can very easily sustain 100 billion people on Earth comfortably and without any damage to the environment. We have the technology, but our current form of society doesn't implement it. The new form of society will not only implement all good technology, it will also develop new technology about 100 times faster. Since humans are much smarter than ants, we can expand into other planets and even leave the solar system.
Therefore, population control is not likely needed for humans. If population control is necessary, humans are able to implement it on their own without war. Humans can no longer engage in war, because we have nuclear weapons.
Tony -
-
Re: Seeking reward
Sat, October 10, 2009 - 8:39 AM<We are a product of our environment, and the strongest influence in our environment is our society. In the right environment, it will be in the heart of each individual.
>
Consider Mat 11:12:
Mat 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
This verse is badly translated, but the point is the kingdom of God has suffered from violence done in it's name and from violent people trying to control it through force. The bottom line is no law will make people change their hearts. For all the work in this country on the matter of Civil rights racism still abounds, all the laws accomplish was to change the form it takes. You want to create an environment in which the kingdom of God can flourish, then create one that gives people the freedom to choose how they will live.
<Ants work because they love to work. Ant wars are their form of population control. You have to remember that ants have had ecological dominance for 60 million years, and in that time they've likely maintained their >
Not all ant fight each other, in fact there is one population that is nearly world wide:
news.bbc.co.uk/earth/hi/e...8127519.stm
"A single mega-colony of ants has colonised much of the world, scientists have discovered.
Argentine ants living in vast numbers across Europe, the US and Japan belong to the same inter-related colony, and will refuse to fight one another.
The colony may be the largest of its type ever known for any insect species, and could rival humans in the scale of its world domination. "
<Humans, likely will not need any form of population control. The new form of society can very easily sustain 100 billion people on Earth comfortably and without any damage to the environment. We have the technology, but our current form of society doesn't implement it. The new form of society will not only implement all good technology, it will also develop new technology about 100 times faster. Since humans are much smarter than ants, we can expand into other planets and even leave the solar system.
Therefore, population control is not likely needed for humans. If population control is necessary, humans are able to implement it on their own without war. Humans can no longer engage in war, because we have nuclear weapons.
>
Your reaching beyond here, beyond to what Gods purpose for man after the ressurection. In many science fiction story there are those ancients that seeded the universe with life, perhaps we are those ancients, or at least one of them.
-
-
-
-
-
-
