Thanks for the heads up Mystic. I was aware of this recent debate betweeen Gary Francione and Erik Marcus, but had not heard it...I've been off podcasts for the last few months...

For me it is also an odd argument, because philosophically I agree much more with Gary, he is probably the person in the AR movement whose philosophy I agree with the most, and I agree that he and others like him will make Animal rights a reality...but yet, I don't agree with his harsh judgement of PETA, HSUS and others, and the blanket claim that they do much more harm then good.

I find it pretty hypocritical actually that all these vegans are sitting around agreeing with Gary's assessment, while most became Vegans because they watched "Meet your meat" or read other PETA litterature.

Although I agreed with many of his points in "Rain without thunder" and I think that constructive criticism and self-observation can only make the movement sronger, I think we must realize how constructive our criticism actually is....and just because we don't agree with supporting Temple Grandin, or Burger King int heir welfarist endeavours, does not eman that the broad statement that those who do are innefective and actually harm the movement more.

we ahve to be careful that we help one another at getting better and not actually fight with one another, cuz the enemy will use this kink in our armor to divide and destroy us.

While Gary is brilliant, not acknowledging that HSUS, PETA and Vegan Outreach among many others have done tremndous things for the AR movement just because they tolerate people, actions and rhetoric that are not 100% Vegan is insane.

PETA has a clear AR message, and all the food on their website is Vegan.

and as for the free-range and organic issue, well, I believe that we are in a revolution and we must behave as we would in a revolution. There are sides, and it IS confrontational. Although we are peaceful, ethical and compassionate, our enemies are not, and although it may be more honest to show them all our cards as Gary wishes, it is not necessarilly the best strategic choice.

If everyone decided to buy ONLY cage-free, organic and "humanely-raised" animal flesh and products tomorrow, the reality is that the demand would far exceed the supply of these "commodities" ...so I say tell meat-eaters to eat organic and free-range and "humanely-raised" as long as they do it EXCLUSIVELY...then, when they see how impossible it is , they will notice how easy veganism is. :-)