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I became a vegan a couple of months ago, and got terrible joint pains soon after. Maybe a coincidence, but can anyone suggest non-soy vegan options, and how to get complete nutrition on a vegan diet?
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Re: Problems with Soy - Help!
Tue, November 15, 2005 - 11:04 AMBeans and rice.
Eat a varied diet. Learn to like ethnic foods and cook lots and lots and lots. Try everything.
Maybe try wheat gluten as alternative to soy.
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Re: Problems with Soy - Help!
Tue, November 15, 2005 - 11:14 AMI am not a fan of Soy at all.
My points are the destruction of Amazon byr Soy farmers and if you take a too much Soy it make you sick.
I have a talking show (radio kpfa, Berkeley) that if you ask me I can send to you and you can listen. There is a book, I guess called "Soy is bad" or something like that too. I have my personal reason to don't like soy.
I can take some misso or Tofu once every two weeks or so but I don't use more than that. I prefer use:
- Hemp seeds
- Spirirulina Algae
- beans, brown rice, garbanzo, etc
- green leafs
It is my recipe to replace soy in your diet. I guess it is more than enough to substitute Soy in your diet. Anybody can comment on that? -
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Re: Problems with Soy - Help!
Tue, November 15, 2005 - 11:15 AMOh, I use Rice Milk a lot instead of soy milk!
Sometimes I use Almond milk too! -
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Re: Problems with Soy - Help!
Tue, November 15, 2005 - 11:17 AMalmond milk is my favorite. way better than soy. -
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Re: Problems with Soy - Help!
Tue, November 15, 2005 - 4:13 PMMost eating soy comes from American farms; Brazilian soy generally goes to cows, but there is some crossover, so I guess it's a bit to worry about.
I suggest quinoa, amaranth, beans and rice, etc. -
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Re: Problems with Soy - Help!
Tue, November 15, 2005 - 4:40 PMThat's is true about brazilian soy. It most goes to cow and chicken production.
BUT the soy market in Brasil is growing 20% each year. So, today you will find much more soy products in brazilian markets than before and it is growing fast.
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Re: Problems with Soy - Help!
Wed, November 16, 2005 - 2:07 PMI've read that too much soy can mess with your hormones (phytoestrogens), but I think this is still a controversial topic. Some extreme right-wing Christians blame soy products for turning men into homosexuals, based on this scientific controversy (I'm talkin' EXTREME, far beyond Coulter and Limbaugh!). But, aside from that silliness, cultures that use soy typically only use it as a protein enhancer, not their sole source of protein. -
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Re: Problems with Soy - Help!
Wed, November 16, 2005 - 4:49 PMrom an email I got from Daily Health News
Soy For You
A few years ago, if you had asked me what the best "health food" in the world was, I probably would have said "soy."
Now I'm not so sure.
For years, we've been hearing that soy is a good source of protein, lowers cholesterol and reduces the risk for heart disease. There was also talk of soy protein having a protective effect against cancer. The reputation of soy still seems solid with mainstream doctors and dietitians. Lately, however, there have been rumblings of dissent in the nutritional community -- and some of these rumblings are very loud. Have we been oversold on soy?
To find out, I spoke with Kaayla Daniel, PhD, CCN, nutritionist and author of The Whole Soy Story: The Dark Side of America's Favorite Health Food (New Trends), who wrote three well-documented protests filed with the FDA regarding the proposed soy protein/cancer health claim. What I learned was disturbing.
MARKETING Versus SCIENCE
"Soy is not a health food, soy is not a panacea and soy has not even been proven safe," Dr. Daniel told me. "It's a triumph of marketing over real science." According to Dr. Daniel, the soy we are being sold in today's US market is a far cry from the soy eaten in Asian diets. "The type of food Asians eat is very different from what's appearing on the American table," she said. "While Asians do indeed eat small amounts of old-fashioned whole soy, they do not consume processed products made with soy protein isolate, texturized vegetable protein and soy oil. They rarely if ever consume soy shakes, energy bars, soy milk, soy burgers and other newly invented foods that use processed soy rather than 'the real deal'."
THE PROBLEMS WITH SOY
According to Dr. Daniel -- and to the growing number of soy detractors -- there are several other problems with soy...
First, it's not a particularly good source of protein. "Soy is very low in an essential amino acid called methionine, without which it can't be fully digested and utilized by the system," said Dr. Daniel. "It consistently scores low on almost all protein ratings except one, the protein digestibility corrected amino acid score (PDCAAS), which was set up as almost an 'affirmative action' rating system to make soy look better than it is." (See Daily Health News, October 10, 2005, for protein rating systems and the poor performance of soy.)
Second, soy contains phytates. Phytates are compounds found in beans, grains and seeds that bind toxic metals such as cadmium (a good thing), but also bind with minerals such as iron, zinc, calcium and magnesium, preventing their absorption (a bad thing). Phytates can cause iron deficiencies, leading to fatigue, lethargy, poor athletic performance and a weakened immune system. Iron deficiencies also can affect the thyroid, which in turn leads to weight gain.
Soy also contains protease inhibitors, compounds that inhibit important enzymes, such as trypsin, which are needed to digest protein. Protease inhibitors are the reason that soy protein, in all forms, is notoriously hard to digest and can badly stress the pancreas. "The commonly held notion that low levels of these protease inhibitors pose no threat to human health is simply untrue," said Dr. Daniel. Protease inhibitors have been linked to malnutrition and pancreatic disease. "While it's widely believed that cooking destroys them, it does not eliminate them completely."
Finally, there's the issue of phytoestrogens, which are plant estrogens found in soybeans. Phytoestrogens exert estrogenic effects directly and indirectly throughout the body. When eaten in sufficiently large quantities, "they can interfere with the production of thyroid hormones, disrupt menstrual cycles, contribute to infertility, even interfere with testosterone production in men, reducing their sex drive," Dr. Daniel told me. She concedes that soy sometimes reduces hot flashes but warns that the possible benefit is outweighed by proven risks to the thyroid, already a vulnerable gland for menopausal women, most often causing weight gain, fatigue and brain fog. Due to dangerous risks to ovarian hormone production, these phytoestrogen products derived from soy should not be used over the long run to treat PMS or symptoms of menopause.
SOY AND CANCER
As for the claim that soy prevents cancer, soy estrogens are listed as carcinogens in some chemistry textbooks. Dr. Daniel believes that compounds in soy may indeed have valid pharmaceutical uses in cancer treatment, but that's not the same as saying we should eat a lot of soy foods. According to Dr. Daniel, numerous studies actually show that soy can contribute to, cause and accelerate the growth of cancer. "Most alarmingly," she told me, "parents who feed their infants soy formula are unwittingly giving them the hormonal equivalent of three to five birth control pills a day, potentially interfering with brain and reproductive system development." The British Dietetic Association, Swiss Federal Health Service and other health authorities have warned parents and pediatricians against the use of soy formula, but in America, 25% of the bottle-fed market uses soy formula... and this number is growing.
Although most researchers are more moderate, believing that one or two portions of a good soy protein a day are probably fine, more and more nutritionists share Dr. Daniel's thinking. "There's no problem eating traditionally fermented products like miso in moderation, and even a little tofu once in a while," she told me, "but for people who want protein shakes, whey is a much better choice. The problem isn't the moderate consumption of soy -- it is the enthusiastic view of it as a perfect protein option for those looking to reduce their consumption of red meat and dairy products."
The answer? Moderation. Almonds anyone? -
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Re: Problems with Soy - Help!
Sat, November 19, 2005 - 11:27 AMToo much of anything is bad, I agree, but the issue of soy is still a controversy, as there have been studies that have supported BOTH sides of the opinion (and were likely funded by respective industries). Until it all boils down and we have definite concrete answers, these studies are mere dairy-soy-meat inudustry fed propaganda trains.
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Re: Problems with Soy - Help!
Wed, November 16, 2005 - 4:58 PMBTW Mike, I was reading this book last night
search.barnesandnoble.com/books...ry.asp
Encyclopedia of Healing Foods
Michael Murray, Joseph Pizzorno, With Lara Pizzorno
And they have a pretty good chapter about optimal food consumption. Pretty good, I would say! You should check it out.
Another book that I recomend is:
search.barnesandnoble.com/books...ry.asp
No More Bull!:
The Mad Cowboy Targets America's Worst Enemy: Our Diet
Find Related Items
Other books by
• Howard F. Lyman
• Glen Merzer
• Joanna Samorow-Merzer
• Caldwell Esselstyn
Find Related Books
• Diet & Nutrition
• Vegetarian & Vegan Cooking
More on this Subject
Search for titles on this subject by checking only those that interest you:
Nonfiction
Vegetarian cooking
Vegetarianism
No More Bull!: The Mad Cowboy Targets America's Worst Enemy: Our Diet
Howard F. Lyman, With Glen Merzer, With Joanna Samorow-Merzer, Foreword by Caldwell Esselstyn
And I just bought the following ones that I am about to receive them soon.
- The Sprouting Book [Paperback]
By: Ann Wigmore
- Eating for Beauty: For Women & Men : Introducing a Whole New Concept of Beauty What It Is, and How You Can Achieve It
By: David Wolfe
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Re: Problems with Soy - Help!
Sat, January 14, 2006 - 5:51 PMI'm reading a great book called Nutrition Made Simple by Robert Crayhon, MS. One of the thing I most like about his approach (aside from stressing that each of us is an individual, and that works for one won't necessarily work for everyone) is the suggestion that we eat like our ancestors did.
Think about it. We are the product of millennia of family lines. If no one in our lineage ever ate soy, our systems might not digest it all that well. People in Asian countries who have in recent generations adopted a more western diet are having problems processing gluten, the key element in wheat.
See if you can find what pre-industrial revolution people (most likely peasants) were eating in the parts of the world from where your family hails.
Also, make sure you're getting all of the nutrients your body needs. Take supplements if you aren't getting from food all the vitamins and minerals your body needs. -
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Unsu...
Re: Problems with Soy - Help!
Sun, January 15, 2006 - 10:32 PMacidophilus, flax seeds, pinenuts, spinach, broccoli, guinoa, beans, walnuts, almonds, depending on your blood type there are certain fruits, veggies, etc that are best for you, soy should always be in moderation, like meat if you eat it, or sweets if you can't help it like my tooth
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Re: Problems with Soy - Help!
Thu, February 16, 2006 - 9:03 AMVermin, great idea - to look back into history and see what diet our ancestors are used to. Just as we Asians often cannot digest milk or wheat, the same may go for Americans or other ethnic groups that you just handle soy differently.
However, on the quote:
"Soy is not a health food, soy is not a panacea and soy has not even been proven safe," Dr. Daniel told me. "It's a triumph of marketing over real science." According to Dr. Daniel, the soy we are being sold in today's US market is a far cry from the soy eaten in Asian diets. "The type of food Asians eat is very different from what's appearing on the American table," she said. "While Asians do indeed eat small amounts of old-fashioned whole soy, they do not consume processed products made with soy protein isolate, texturized vegetable protein and soy oil. They rarely if ever consume soy shakes, energy bars, soy milk, soy burgers and other newly invented foods that use processed soy rather than 'the real deal'."
I can only partially agree to it. Americans seem to do things in extreme, and they like to isolate one useful ingredient from any whole food or diet to determine "ah, this is the magic ingredient", rather than take everything in moderation and as a whole.
If you go to the Buddhist Temple I go to and see the traditional Chinese vegetarian meals we share, of the 10 or so dishes, probably half will have soy products in it. (not counting soy sauce). And they aren't always the star of the entree. We do have processed soy and wheat products for vegetarian meat, from veggie burger to chicken to fish and everything in between. Usually they are added to at least as much other vegetables to make a complete dish. Even the veggie burger we slice and stir fry with peppers and other ingredients. And we drink soy milk, it's not excatly newly invented, nor are those vegeterian meats - althought nowadays with "technology" they can make it more "real", but we also drink tea, water, juice and other stuff too. None of my Chinese vegetarian friends eat soy everyday, not to mention to the degree that some Americans do.
When someone on a meat diet eats slabs of steaks and chicken and fish, and drinks a lot of milk, ends up with too much protein, if he switches to a vegetarian diet and eats the same way but with soy everything instead, he's going to have problem too! Just that simple.
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Tempeh good, TVP bad (or at least iffy)
Sun, January 15, 2006 - 10:47 PMNot all soy is equal!
I did a lot of research on this last year, for fear I was consuming too much (not because I was having any ill effects). After reading everything I could, and consulting two MDs, I came to the conclusion that TEMPEH and MISO were still great, I should eat other soy products in moderation. Tempeh and miso are made by fermenting soy, which helps break it down, making it much more digestable and bio-available. Traditional tofu was also fermented, but today is often processed in some other way.
If you suspect soy is giving you problems, try laying off the TVP and Garden Burgers, and try some tempeh instead. I am especially fond of tempeh sloppy joes :) (see earlier thread).
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Re: Problems with Soy - Help!
Mon, January 16, 2006 - 10:41 PMOne thing to also consider are mushrooms or other fungal products. So far they seem to have complete proteins, and are very low in fat. Of course if you need fat, you can always try the nuts people have suggested above. -
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Re: Problems with Soy - Help!
Tue, January 17, 2006 - 10:12 AMFlavio: A great read, thanks... When I changed to a completely vegetarian diet 5 years ago, I expected to lose alot of weight due to the lessened fat intake from red meat products... What happened was completely different, I started gaining... Some of which is because I substituted proteins for carbohydrates (a bad move, I know).. I also was consuming an incredible amount of Soy as a my main protien staple... Even though, I worked out regularly and stayed really active... I couldn't shake the weight...
On the flipside, I didn't feel the lethagy like the article mentioned... In fact, it was completely opposite... The "food coma" that I used to get after eating a meat heavy diet was gone... I had more energy after lunch breaks and was more alert and productive...
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Re: Problems with Soy - Help!
Sun, January 22, 2006 - 4:50 PMI just learned this new recipe for a "veggie burger".
Take some yams, canned or otherwise and mash them up with some blackeyed peas (cooked or canned, depending on your laziness, I guess). Add some wheat germ to make them into patties and fry them. I like to add Lecithin to make it even more healthy and some salt to make it even more tasty. So there you go. Burger with no soy product.
And about the Lecithin, it's really good for your whole nervous system (mylean sheaths) and can be used as an egg substitute.
I'm a really bad speller, but this the food's good, I promise, even if I can't spell it. -
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Re: Problems with Soy - Help!
Wed, January 25, 2006 - 9:02 PMi heard that soy is more for the women!!
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Re: Problems with Soy - Help!
Tue, October 31, 2006 - 9:29 AMudo's oil is really good for join pain
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Re: Problems with Soy - Help!
Wed, November 1, 2006 - 3:30 PMA vegan diet does not provide the essential nutrient b12. You will need to either take a supplement or eat fortified foods (such as fortified soy milk) You'll also want to make sure you are getting enough iron. -
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Unsu...
Re: Problems with Soy - Help!
Wed, November 1, 2006 - 4:12 PMiron is a non-issue in Vegan foods
www.soystache.com/iron.htm
www.vrg.org/nutrition/iron.htm
Vitamin C helps to better absorb iron: www.veganoutreach.org/enewsle...418.html (do a word search for "iron")
Dr.Greger talks about Optimum Vegan nutrition and iron is not even an issue, zinc and iodine are more pressing issues for Vegan Nutrition than iron: www.drgreger.org/talks/
and read this too: www.pcrm.org/health/canc...es.html#iron
Iron is, however an issue for lacto-vegetarians because dairy causes iron deficiency:
www.pcrm.org/health/veginfo/dairy.html
here's a non-pro Vegan source (they talk ahuge bunch of dung about heme vs. non-heme iron (heme just means red) but they clearly say that cow's millk is not a good source of iron and in fact that it can cause iron-defficiencies in babies www.caringforkids.cps.ca/babie...tfoods
as for B12...you only need about .2 micrograms per day (that is really not a lot) and can easily get all your B-12 by eating fortified soy foods, cereals and nutritional yeast.
PLUS your body can store B-12 for years!
www.pcrm.org/health/veginfo/b12.html
(in fact B-12 is identified as a vegetarian health issue when it isn't really, it is an issue for everyone...B-12 should usually be present in our water and our soil...since we live in an overly antiseptic and chemicalized world, our soil and water do not contain B-12.
If we hadn't so overpolluted and ***ed up our environment we would get all the B-12 we need from the skin of veggies and water.
as for B-12 in meat, B-12 is only present in any significant amounts in the inner organs of healthy animals (including humans) so unless a meat-eater eats lots of inner organs of healthy animals (and the only animals that could be considered even remotely healthy these days wouyld be wild animals)
In fact when my wife went Vegan she had a blood test done to check her B-12 levels, and they were low, and the doctor was all smug, but my wife had only been Vegan for a little while...before that she ate meat ...so that means her B-12 levels were low when she ate meat...;-) ...but sicne they only test Vegans for B-12...:-)...Meanwhile my B-12 level was perfect...and I had been Vegan MUCH longer...but then again I ate more nutritional yeast and soy milk than she did!
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