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Re: How to say LOVE in gypsy language?
Tue, January 1, 2008 - 10:11 PMI am starting to get an idea why you asked this question and why nobody answered it. I don't speak Romanes, so I searched almost all the online dictionaries I could find. First of all, it is time consuiming because all of them seem to be Romanes-English and none the other way round, so searching is a hit and miss process. And then, even going from A-Z several times, I know now that, to my amazement, "mort" means woman and "mush" means man, but no, none of them had a word for "love". Strange, eh? Any help from any of those who do know the language? -
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Re: How to say LOVE in gypsy language?
Sun, January 27, 2008 - 2:42 PMI grew up in south georgia in the USA (not former soviet georgia) and my family is, to this day, extreemly secretive. like someone else mentioned somewhere else on this board, I was also initially told that I was Native American although when I got older I was told differently.
Now, the language was not passed down to me. I've heard it many time, but it was not taught to me, however my mother always had a serious distaste for the word 'love' as well as the word 'good-bye' because she felt that these could only bring on bad things. A person saying good-bye might not return and to say they - i love you implied that it was also possible`to not love you and everyone in my family was definiiety. Also, I know she did not like the double meaning - I love you could also mean I lust you and it would not be appropriate to say that to children, friends, family or older people!
But, one could say that in my family these things are said silently - with a warm meaningful embrace. Much more powerful than any word. Of course, as appropriate!
Now, i know that traditions vary quite a bit and I've been trying to sort out my mom's personal quirks from the cultural. Its hard for me to know if this is simply a personal quirk, something more regional or what? But its does seem consistent with the lack of availability of such terms in most resources. Also, these things are related torelations between men and women and... well... my mom would just shush me right here...
Eva -
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Re: How to say LOVE in gypsy language?
Sun, January 27, 2008 - 8:25 PMThis is very interesting, Eva. Esp. about the part where you say "I love you" implies the possibility to not love you.
In Japan, people don't like to say these words either. Once I asked someone why and he said:"We think, if you say something about a deep feeling, it is lost."
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Re: How to say LOVE in gypsy language?
Wed, January 2, 2008 - 2:48 PMwe will get this mystery solved!
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Re: How to say LOVE in gypsy language?
Wed, January 2, 2008 - 2:50 PMHi there, now you do mean Romani? Because if you do a search say on China language, it will be difficult to find. But try Romani, and you will get the hit Romlex for sure and there you will find many words for love. This would be like me not capitalizing the word jew and then writing language behind it=jew langauge........ -
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Re: How to say LOVE in gypsy language?
Wed, January 2, 2008 - 3:07 PMcool. that's the way to go. { although i like the word "gypsy" better then romani....!}
i thought i would find someone here on this tribe who speaks the language!
thanks.
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Re: How to say LOVE in gypsy language?
Wed, January 2, 2008 - 9:06 PMmost of the dictionaries I found online said "Romanes" and explained that it was the languiage of the gypsies. Why don't you try it yourself and tell us how to say "love" ? -
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Re: How to say LOVE in gypsy language?
Wed, January 2, 2008 - 9:19 PMhmm...
just found out, that there is a few different dialects of Romani. it depends which group.
so truly good luck! i just though someone with gypsy blood here, would teach me the word!
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Re: How to say LOVE in gypsy language?
Wed, January 2, 2008 - 9:33 PMyeah, I also did not expect that this would prove so difficult ! Strangely, I have found all kinds of other words in these lists, but not "love ". Surprises me too that so far you have not gotten any answer to this. -
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Re: How to say LOVE in gypsy language?
Wed, January 2, 2008 - 9:41 PMthanks for helping! it was sad to read on line, that lots of gypsies perished in nazi camps, that how lots of the culture dissapeared....
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Re: How to say LOVE in gypsy language?
Thu, January 3, 2008 - 1:22 PMA lot of us, Sharka, find "Gypsy" offensive. I certainly do. My family is Rroma, they spoke what they called Romipen, I am Romani. I am not "gypsy." That is a word created in ignorance of our culture, from people who felt we came from Egypt. Now is "I got gypped," "I have a gyppy car," etc.
Much of my family was Bohemian Rroma, all perished in the concentration camps. The last speaker of Bohemian roma, from what I have researched, died in the 1970's. The remaining family was from the Czech republic, where many still live, and while I spoke romipen as a child (in what I believe, after looking at Gregor's site, was probably Kalderdash-ish), my grandparents are long since deceased and I am now rusty. Just be aware that the "g" word offends many of us. Not all, but many. -
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Re: How to say LOVE in gypsy language?
Thu, January 3, 2008 - 9:43 PMI knew someone would dislike the word "Gypsy"!... but! in my world, is not offensive, but beautiful. In yours it is offensive.
That is all. I am from Czech republic originaly, I know about Romani..
I am for healing and happy to see that after the fall of communism there is a revival of THe Roma culture...!
They even have their own store in Prague and they have a big gatherings with music....I went to one few years ago..
I had a blast... -
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Re: How to say LOVE in gypsy language?
Thu, January 3, 2008 - 9:52 PMWow, going to Prague is still one of my dreams, can you let me know more about those gatherings?
Yes, and I never knew that "gypsy" is offensive either. What about those bands, "gypsy caravan" and so on?
Anyway, so does this mean, there is really NOBODY on this tribe who even knows the word for "love" in Romani?
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Re: How to say LOVE in gypsy language?
Fri, January 4, 2008 - 2:19 PMHi Shakra,
For you it is not offfensive because you are probably not Romani.........I do not know............but for me as a Romani, it is...Now may be....for a white person.........a wigger (You know, stupid white people pretending to be Black) maybe, the word NIGGER is ok! Wiggers have shopped at Wu Tang Clang's store in S.I. but aht does that mean? Now I am not saying you are like this, but your reaction causes me to think of this example thaqt I provide.
And the word for I love is me(I) kamav(love/want)...........ciao
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Re: How to say LOVE in gypsy language?
Sun, January 6, 2008 - 11:30 PMRom, I have heard that too, that "gypsy" has to do with Egypt and it never made much sense to me, as there are many other and probably better known places that the Roma migrated to, and we all know that they did not come from Egypt, originally. I found an interesting explanation of the word on a site that discusses the book "Bury me standing":
"The Roma are from the warrior castes of the Punjab.(...)The Roma appeared in Europe first in 1300 A.D., fleeing from forcible Islamic conversions by the Turks. In Europe, ironically, they were accused of being advance spies for the Turks, and persecuted again. They were also mistaken as Egyptians, whence the folklore origin of the term Gypsy. Fonseca apparently is unaware of yet another etymology: Punjab-say -- from Punjab, which was what the earliest immigrants to Persia replied when asked where they have come from. By the time, they reached Byzantium, the locals heard Punjab-say as Jabsay, Gypsy. The locals took Gypsy to mean from Egypt, a country they had heard of."
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Re: How to say LOVE in gypsy language?
Mon, January 7, 2008 - 6:24 AMFonesca's book is full of mis-information and based upon her own experience, not solid research and a true understanding of the culture. If you want a better look, contact Artemis Mourat or go through Amalipen.net or VOR, not a Gadje writer who spent some time with a few Romani. -
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Re: How to say LOVE in gypsy language?
Mon, January 7, 2008 - 6:25 AMWhich website was this? Oddly, once in a while on Amazon.com, a voice of reason pops up about her book as well saying, "don't buy what you read." And yes, people mistakenly thought we came from Egypt, which fits in with what you had said previously. -
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Re: How to say LOVE in gypsy language?
Mon, January 7, 2008 - 6:49 AMI found the review of Fonseca's book on www.indiastar.com/wallia2.htm
Thank you, Rom, I asked in another posting whether Fonseca's work is representative or not. Great, I am lucky, as Artemis Mourat is coming to Tokyo soon to give workshops on dance. -
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Re: How to say LOVE in gypsy language?
Mon, January 7, 2008 - 12:58 PMI know Artie personally, and just adore her. I have most of her writings--they are extremely informative, even for the rromani to read.
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Re: How to say LOVE in gypsy language?
Sun, January 27, 2008 - 7:22 PMPerhaps 'gypsy' is a word better to be given away to those who wish they were the Hollywood romaticized "gypsy' or to the belly dancers and Hippies (no insult to hippies here of course)... many of them want it, let them have the word... personally I'm tired of being asked for a tarot reading or some pot! neither of which I do. My mother did some readings at times, but by looking into a candle flame... never with cards and surely not tarot cards .... my Grandmother sometimes did with a plain deck of playing cards or seven pennies.
I raised the issue of the people to a person I thought I knew - preparing to share what to me is still mostly my 'secret'- I was amazed when a person i thought i knew well told me... quite bluntly, that no one should be insulted by the word - even if its been used wrong. I asked her if she would say that she had been 'jew'd out of something' and then she insisted that there was no relationship between gipped and the word gypsy! All in all she considered herself rather knowledgeable on "gypsies"! The fact that she could not even grasp - or rather refused to grasp these relationships and meanings is beyond me - especially in someone who claims to have been fascinated with "gypsies" and "made a special study of the subject". she then began to try to educate me with a story of 'dirty Gypsies that used to come into her restaurant and steal all the silverware and let their kids run wild.' As if one experience (which I expect was probably with a band of hippies) could stand as almost sociological proof of certain types of undesirable behavior. Of course I asked if one white person snorting coke should characterize the behavior of white people? She looked puzzled at that.
anyway, so much for my rambling! I'm a bit off the topic, but i could go on about this forever. -
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Re: How to say LOVE in gypsy language?
Sun, January 27, 2008 - 8:19 PMhi Eva! thanks for your post. you know it is kinda funny being clasified as someone who "romanticize gypsies" . like it happened to me here.
despite that i am very aware of the whole package of this culture, since i grew up next to Romas. and i've seen it all. unfortunately what happened here after i asked about the word love was a good reminder more of the bad things i remember about them. i was trying to bring the good and i love certain aspects of Romas culture and i was happy to see in my homeland, how they gather their culture and the revival today, which could bring some healing to the past... in my homeland we mostly tried to keep away from Romas, cuz their often violent vicious unrational behavior. i felt that feeling again here on tribe, sorry to say... in no means i romanticize, and if i did i bit, that's gone for sure. -
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Re: How to say LOVE in gypsy language?
Sun, January 27, 2008 - 10:54 PMFirst, this was not directed at you. I understand the fascination and to me, this is ok.
People find acceptance through others, and understanding - to ask about a word - that is not wrong. I admire you for your willingness to want to learn - as i said - i do not speak the language myself.
What I wished to relay was how it was not good to take one example as representative of the whole -
be this the woman that could not understand how 'gypsy' could be as offensive as 'jew'd' or nigger and that these terms get tied to stereotypes. For example, that romanticized 'gypsy' is also a thief that just cant help herself! now I wont say for a minute that desperate people will not steal nor will i say that people, no matter their ethnic background, do not have a right to steal to survive - and some here may not like me for that either! But we should know people as people. in this way there are no "niggers, gypsies and (insert popular scapegoat here)"... just peoples in which you will find good and bad be it in the trailer parks of the deep south, the feilds, or the gettos or the glass palaces. There is no barrier to good and bad...
But having said that, be careful what you think is good and bad...
My son ran wild! and there were people that thought I should controle him... yet.... how many times do you get to be a child? he tells his friends that he isnt in a hurry to grow up because kids have 'muchers rights'... we laugh.. this is funny! At school I had the problem with him with the most petti things - cut his hair, a belt on his pants, tuck in his shirt... why all the rules? he's a kid. We disagreed a lot about homework, too... when is a child to play? Home should be home.
now, dont take this as representative of everyone - I can hardly take that role being just one person with a limited experience! But there is no good without bad, no bad without good... each thing will always shadow and have for itself a facet of the other :)
Eva (who got stuck with a horrible name!) -
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Re: How to say LOVE in gypsy language?
Mon, January 28, 2008 - 12:40 AMEva, I am really glad you are here, on this tribe. And I don't think there is anything horrible at all about being called Eva, the first woman on earth, even if it is not a Roma name.
Witnessing what happened on this tribe, I could only feel that meeting discrimination, imagined or not, with counter-discrimination will not help things to progress anywhere. What is a "gadjo" supposed to do? It felt like you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't. If you are not interested in Roma, you are likely to be labeled one of "them" who don't care, pompous as they may be, and if you are, you are attacked here by somebody for being a clueless, romantic idiot who has no idea of the suffering of the Roma people and is just pursuing a fantasy, wasting everyone's time on this tribe and so on. Yeah, right, that is exactly the reason why I spent a couple of years trying to learn flamenco, hurting my feet, wrecking my back for days, because I am one of those clueless romantics in pursuit of a silly fantasy, riiight...
Thank you for contributing to a bridge over this gap, Eva. -
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Re: How to say LOVE in gypsy language?
Mon, January 28, 2008 - 6:43 AMI think that post was unnecessary. The reaction may have been overblown, but the brush off of "please don't use the G word for it offends may of us" was offensive to us as well. Julia had essentially asked for a cease fire, and it was given...let us not start flame wars again. -
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Re: How to say LOVE in gypsy language?
Mon, January 28, 2008 - 6:59 AMI think what you may not know- though I am not sure, maybe you do: I asked around around a bit after this experience here and found out that other friends have either gone silent completely and turned into passive members or left this tribe altogether before I joined because the same thing happened to them, too. And told me, this happens a lot when somebody non-Roma dares to ask some question here. I guess, I must be one of the luckier one as I was not bashed quite like that but I still found it worth thinking about. -
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Re: How to say LOVE in gypsy language?
Mon, January 28, 2008 - 9:51 AMI do know, yes, Astrid. However, I was not present when it happened in this tribe, nor were you, so we can do nothing but judge on our current experiences. A question was asked, a perhaps harsh answer was given, I asked to refrain from using a word many of us found offensive, I was told no, and more parties became involved. There are grievances on all sides, and there are faults on all sides. We used one of our culture's words--gadje, we were jumped on and called prejudicial. No, it simply means "non-Roma." It is not an offensive word--I am non-African American. I do not find offense is someone saying, "Rom! You're not African American!" I'm not. Simply put. A gadje is not Roma. While it can be a slur, it was not used so in this case. Also, many Roma have also left this board based upon the flame wars. Again, grievances on all sides, and we should respect Julia's request to let it be, and not further enforce that us vs. them mentality that has arisen here. -
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Re: How to say LOVE in gypsy language?
Mon, January 28, 2008 - 10:03 AMThanks, Rom. I guess I will just have to live with the "gadjo" label then, and it does not feel any stranger than having some local Japanese say to me in Hawaii:"I asked So-and-so to drive you home. Haha, I wonder what his mother would say if she knew he is driving around with a Hauli girl."
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Re: How to say LOVE in gypsy language?
Mon, January 28, 2008 - 10:49 AMi definitely have no problem not use gypsy, if it is offensive to someone, which i didnt kno it was .... i also had a difficult time the way things were expressed here, seemed kinda harsh... that is all. Seems like the word Romani comes from the country of Romania?
peace, shark -
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Re: How to say LOVE in gypsy language?
Mon, January 28, 2008 - 11:31 AMIt does not come from "Romania." There are Rroma in Romania, but being Romani and being Romanian is not the same thing. My family was Romanian, but we are not Rroma, we are Jewish - and now American.
Here is a clip from www.rroma.org about the history of the Rroma's "title."
"In Asia, they call themselves Dom, in Armenia, Lom and in Europe Rrom, Rom or even Rhom. Some people maintain that the name Rrom is derived from Rama, the Indian God. But, in the course of history and time, the Indian retroflexive consonant D was deformed in a L in Armenia and to Rr, R or Rh in Europe."
There is a difference between Dom(ari) and Rrom(ani) which you may want to look into as well. But no, the word Romani does not come from the word Romanian.
As Gregor explained a while back, the ending "-ani" means "like" so "Romani" is "Roma-like" or "of the Roma."
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Re: How to say LOVE in gypsy language?
Fri, January 4, 2008 - 6:12 AMHello All,
Sarsan? =How are You?
Manglipe-=Love
Me Mangav Tut-=I Love You
Baxhtalo Nevo 2008 Bersh!=Happy New 2008 Year
Julia -
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Re: How to say LOVE in ROMANI language? Corection
Fri, January 4, 2008 - 6:15 AMHello All,
Sarsan? =How are You?
Manglipe-=Love
Me Mangav Tut-=I Love You
Baxhtalo Nevo 2008 Bersh!=Happy New 2008 Year
Julia -
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Re: How to say LOVE in ROMANI language? Corection
Sat, January 5, 2008 - 5:20 PMyeeeee, lovely! -
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Re: How to say LOVE in ROMANI language? Corection
Sun, January 6, 2008 - 2:03 PMDear Shakra, I find interesting that you a Chez person would react as you have, considering that thousands of Roma fled neonazism in the Chez Republic during the 1990s. I also find it disgusting that you want to learn a Romani word (for whatever delight you wish to use it for) but seem to not want to learn anything else in the process. DId it make yopu shreak that your behaviour resembles that of a wigger? Look, we are not a toy for your pleasure and it may bother you that the beutiful word you like would cause the people that use the language you ask about to see you in this way........... -
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Re: How to say LOVE in ROMANI language? Corection
Sun, January 6, 2008 - 7:57 PMyou are projecting some of your own personal issues and chose me as a target. i forgive you. peace. -
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Re: How to say LOVE in ROMANI language? Corection
Sun, January 6, 2008 - 11:12 PMGreg,
would you prefer tris tribe to be for Roma only? If not, regarding your efforts to alienate a new gadje member,as it appears to me, I believe that maybe you have not read this, and take the liberty to remind you. Copied and pasted:
1. Conduct and Content
While using or accessing the Service--directly or indirectly--you agree to take a constructive tone and practice good etiquette and courtesy and you agree NOT to:
threaten, disrupt, inflame, intimidate, libel, stalk, defame, or defraud any individual, entity, or group on any basis including but not limited to age, gender, sexual orientation, ethnicity, race, religion or disability or encourage any one else to do so.
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Re: Voice of Roma Members
Mon, January 7, 2008 - 5:15 AMDear All VOR Members,
As a Moderator I like to well come all of you. I started this tribe as part of our Organization; Voice of Roma.
Please read the Mission statement of our Organization and visit the website for more information who we are.
Thank you,
Julia
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Re: How to say LOVE in ROMANI language? Corection
Mon, January 7, 2008 - 6:26 AMDear Astrid,
There is no need for this.....Conduct and Content...
Thanks,
Julia
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Re: How to say LOVE in ROMANI language? Corection
Mon, January 7, 2008 - 11:12 AMYes by all means, let us discuss conduct. Now let me reflect your words back onto you from a Romani perspective which may be helpful or not. You see, not to consider how offesnive it is to a Romani to say I like the word gypsy and have been here and there and what not.....can be quite offensive. When you adress me with rules of conduct, you do it an ethnocentric manner not realizing how much even further damage you cause by this. Let me ask you, do you prefer that there be no Roma in here with knowledge that you seem to interested in? Well then, may be yoyu should less, keep your opinion but learn of what this means.
Yes Julia, there are still Cigans that use Vigan to describe who and what they. But, the Roma, hav ecampaigned, and changed this. We are called Romer in Sweden, Romov in Poland and so on, and if someone refers to us as Cigans in say an official capacity, this can actualy cause legal action. Some Roma who do call themselves Cigans and so on, allow gadzhe even to spit on them, some others do not speak Romani at all and have internalized the external term. So Julia, what I am saying is, that where it is used by Roma is not necessarally a matter of preference, so it does not make it OK for gadzhe to think it is OK. -
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Re: How to say LOVE in ROMANI language? Corection
Tue, January 8, 2008 - 6:39 PMand for you it is ok to call white people gadzhe.... hmmm, yes. very nice. get a grip. -
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Re: How to say LOVE in ROMANI language? Corection
Wed, January 9, 2008 - 5:22 AMBesides, "gadzhe" appropriately means "the people who try to force the Roma to become Moslems."
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