Out with the PLUR and in with the Classism

topic posted Fri, September 28, 2007 - 1:45 PM by  offlinekyle
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An interesting commentary on the scene from my friend Stephen:

people.tribe.net/trix/blog

So you might have noticed that I’ve gotten a little political lately. If you’ve missed it, read some of my most recent posts. Time to change things up for a bit and talk about something local. Perhaps I can tie it into the general American trend of greed and power taking over individual choice and freedom. Perhaps it’ll be a stretch. You can decide for yourself.

Last weekend several of my friends and I went to Symbiosis Gathering (www.symbiosis.org). The multi-day festival featured some of the best local and international electronic artists from across the spectrum. Overall, I was very pleased with the music that I heard, from old favorites (Deru) to new ones (Mala). Although the music was the focus of the event, what I noticed more than anything else was the culture of the various communities that come out for this (and many other) events and festivals (what we used to call “raves”) here on the West Coast. Before I continue, I want to put out there that I don’t intend to point fingers specifically at Symbiosis, because they are just one of many events and crews that perpetuates this movement of our subculture that I will describe and critique. These new characteristics reach beyond that festival and are both present in year round events put on by many West Coast event production communities as well as our daily lives. Furthermore, I’d like to state that the ideas in this essay may seem just as judgmental as the attitudes and behaviors that I am calling out as harmful and destructive. Regardless of how you feel about my critical thoughts enclosed, you should know that they come out of both my personal observations and of people in a variety of “social classes” who have shared their impressions through honest conversations over the past week. And now, back to business.

I remember a time when we were all saying “its all about the music.” It was a time when people from many different walks of life found a space to shed the layers of bullshit of the everyday world to express themselves, to find “peace, love, unity and respect” and be welcomed as the freak, geek, weirdo, etc that they truly were. This weekend, I found myself deeply aware of a shift away from these old raver values, into a vanity and classism that is now intricately woven into this part of the rave scene.

I’m not sure what to call this section of the “rave” scene that I am speaking of, but it’s a spin off of the breaks scene, which has musically moved in the direction of hip hop, and whose members predominantly consist of those fond of sexy low bpm, bass heavy tracks (bassnectar, the glitch mob, etc), feathers, fedoras, reconstructed clothing, psychedelics and the art inspired by them, and performance-ritual. You get the picture. I’m not here to call out that this scene has gotten fucked up (most of you have probably observed this already), but I am here to point out what seem to be the deeper layers of why it’s now the way it is and how it has influenced the way we all see and carry ourselves in our communities and in relationship to one another. I’m not implying that these social mores exist in a scene that we are not part of, but rather I’m recognizing and calling us out that this scene is OUR scene. In doing so, I aim to implicate us all as accomplices in something inherently superficial, greedy and self-serving that ultimately discourages open-mindedness and open-heartedness.

Symbiosis provided a perfect opportunity to conduct some anthropological research on classism in this part of the West Coast rave scene. Looking around, it was easy to observe how when certain music is playing (or djs performing) the dancefloor divides into different cliques based on appearances. It was apparent that beyond the superficial differences between cliques, there is a pecking order or class hierarchy, where the upper classes look down upon and don’t associate with the lower classes based predominantly on their appearances.

It’s hard to say exactly what defines a certain class, but the most obvious and defining characteristics is appearance as defined by fashion, body image, age, etc. The upper echelon are the trustafarian peacocks (www.urbandictionary.com/define.php and their wealthy associates. Think couture clothing, custom leather, and those who more or less keep the tribal markets and bazaars (and the poor artists of Bali) in business. A breed that remarkably resembles the fashionistas of NYC or Paris. They are attractive, they are skinny, they are young, they are “the beautiful people from the future” as several people I know have called them. I watch them only associate with their kind, often turning a cold shoulder to those who dress and look differently. I might as well call it out - they are the El Circo’s of the scene. Yes, there are some who don’t look like them but who get acknowledged – mainly, the djs and drug dealers who have their own kind of power – these people are somewhat welcome into these circles, even though they will never be considered their equals, and are treated more like a powerful and influential servant class. The allure is obviously tempting, what a great opportunity to be near the rich and powerful and at the same time invest in your art.

Working down the social hierarchy are the tutu-ed faeries (who some might say are trying to create their own separatist elite class, but I don’t think they’ve succeeded), then those who sport reconstructed clothing, and down the line we go. Where do you fit in?

So what’s the problem? Well, the challenge is that these rich and powerful folks propagate the memes of the scene. It might be the music geeks that support new upcoming talent in the underground, but it’s the upper class that define what is cool and hip. They are the ones who support the designers and artists on the largest of scales, and the rest of the scene follows suit. What is cool is woven so deeply and intricately into the culture that we become unconscious of our choices and attitudes towards those who look different than us. Not only do aesthetics weave their way into the scene, but the whole vanity meme follows suit. The rich and (therefore) powerful may be vain, but they’re also sexy and mysterious – the allure to follow their lead is strong. The superficiality trickles down to all levels, where even those closer to the bottom judge those who appear different, with regard to fashion, body image and age.

As I stood on the dancefloor Sunday morning at the forest stage, I looked around me seeing it all play out. It seemed like there were so many people dressing not to express themselves, but to mimic the upper class trustafarians, convinced that they are making their own personal choices. And as I looked around, I knew that despite their efforts some would never make their way up the social ladder into those exclusive circles because of their age, weight and income. I became sad for those who (whether consciously or unconsciously) strive to be accepted by the upper class folks by not only emptying their bank accounts on fashion accessories, but also participating in body modification (not only tattoos and piercings, but also insane exercise regimens and health food consumption). Our self esteem is so easily dependent on others’ acceptance of us, so it is all too easy to fall into the traps of changing ourselves to be more like the beautiful people.

The rich and (therefore) powerful set the standards for the culture, their financial influence over the arts determines what is cool, and the rest of the community attempts to live up to these standards, by spending hard earned money to meet the subculture’s rules. Meanwhile, as the most affluent group looks down upon the rest of the community for not being cool, hip, styled, etc, the 2nd most affluent group follows their lead and submits the classes below them to the same scrutiny (despite the irony that they will never be able to be accepted by the upper class, unless they find more disposable income, get skinnier, younger, etc). Rinse, repeat all down the social ladder.

The social hierarchy or pecking order is set and the attitudes of social climbing, or associating with cool people (or those of your class or better) becomes a large motivating factor of participation in the scene, regardless of what class you belong to. As we move down the pecking order, the classes are more tolerable and welcoming (as you would guess since they are oppressed by the higher classes), but still have judgment towards those below them that don’t fit the mold.

You might be saying “that’s not me, that’s them!” However, I challenge you on that assertion. Its so easy to point fingers and not take responsibility. I cannot say that we all do this, but I do and have witnessed it happening in my closest friend groups and across all of the social classes. I’m here writing about you and I just as much as I am writing about them. These ideas of vanity and classism extend all the way down into each one of our social circles and affect us all individually. For example, one of my dj friends who we would all agree lives his life in a class above mine, was quick to condemn the class above him for their vanity and classist attitude, since they have treated him like shit in the past. He confidently said that his group of friends is unlike the elite group, because when they gather he feels comfortable and welcome. Through some discussion, we both came to realize that we both belong to social classes, where some of us are welcomed and others are not because of appearances.

I’m not saying that our unwelcome is always intentional. I believe more often than not that we are working so hard at maintaining our status (self worth) in a certain class, by reinforcing the connections with those in our class, or trying to make connections with those in higher classes, that we find ourselves without time or energy for those whose appearance is of a lower social class.

So back to Symbiosis…Later on Sunday afternoon, when I went over to the field stage I noticed something different where sounds of psytrance filled the valley. The “trancers” as we call them have their cliques, but there doesn’t seem to be such a classist, hierarchical organization based in money and appearance. I was a part of that scene for a long time and never noticed those things being present and that still seems to be true today. Trancers, whether they dress in those fluorescent Star Trek outfits, wear tie-dye, regular street clothes or some ridiculous costume, smile at each other and dance with each other. There is no pecking order that you must work your way up to be welcomed into their stomping ground. Hell, you can even look like a breaks or hip hop kid and they are welcoming. And there seems to be much more permeability in the different subgroups in that scene. The PLUR values seem to have held out as the scene has avoided in some way or another the classism that’s worked its way into other systems.

So why has this happened in this part of the scene and not the others? Why is it largely limited to the West Coast? I’d like to blame LA’s influence, but that seems a little too simple. Perhaps those attracted to this kind of music in the rave scene are also easily tempted into the excitement of sex, drugs and fashion that the elite have brought within the boundaries of the community and once again the geeks want to be just like the cool kids, just like high school. Now’s the second chance to be popular.

Where do we go from here? I find myself looking at my own attitudes towards the people in the scene and see that I have my own judgments based on people’s appearances. How do I step away from these judgments? As I contribute my energy to music and art events in SF, how to I insert my beliefs of non-judgment and acceptance into a scene that has already been infected with these vain and blindly classist attitudes. Does throwing an event in this scene automatically continue to push these vain attitudes that favor those who have more money to live up to the standards set by the elite? Can we continue to financially and socially support those promoters, artists and designers who reinforce classism and social hierarchy in our music scene? What changes are we willing to make? Do we feel the need to make changes in our own contributions to the scene that reinforce the class and social hierarchy and the vanity that comes with it? Are we mature enough to take a step back and reflect on how own social status (and the urge to maintain it or climb up the social ladder) is tied to our self esteem? In what ways are we willing to change our own attitudes and behaviors to create a more open, loving and friendly culture that doesn’t judge people based on social class and appearances both in the larger scene and in our smaller social circles?

At last weekend’s festival, I saw a theme that has been growing over the past few years as the West Coast breaks/hip hop scene recreates our mainstream culture’s standards that empower the rich and powerful and look down upon those who don’t fit the mold. The more those who don’t fit the mold change to fit the standards of the elite group, the more they are accepted by the culture as a whole. The pressure is immense to leave those with undesirable characteristics behind, even if it means oneself. Almost mindlessly and helplessly, so many of us take on these negative attitudes and spread them throughout our subculture, often rejecting our own identities, values and self worth in order to be seen and accepted by others. It is a way of life here in our little culture that I’m not proud to be a part of. I am looking for ways to create some change, in the face of the powerful forces that influence our lives with harmful and negative energy. How sad that we who try and create communities that differ from typical American values, end up embodying the same unhealthy attitudes and repeating the same destructive patterns.



My goal with this post is to create an ongoing dialogue about this subject so that we can create positive change in our lives. I'm fortunate enough to be connected to people in many social classes, so i hope this facilitates dialogue between them. When you go out this weekend, take these ideas with you and observe what you see on the dancefloor and in yourself. I’ll probably bug you from time to time about this, because it is important to me and it so easily gets pushed aside, because it brings into question so much of what we look forward to each weekend. I welcome your comments on my blog, via email, on the phone or in person. See you soon on the dancefloor.
posted by:
kyle
SF Bay Area
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  • Re: Out with the PLUR and in with the Classism

    Thu, October 4, 2007 - 1:39 AM
    Well that's quite a diatribe.
    I've heard people whispering and trying to get me to engage in a conversation about the same thing you speak of and I'm gonna tell you the same thing I've told them. Sort of.
    First:
    Classism is not what's happening. I could say exactly the same thing about you too since I don't see any fat poorly dressed people in your pictures. I've been hanging around the scene awhile before you took any photos of me-and I wanted you to! Maybe it was because I wanted to belong-maybe it was because I thought you captured the essence of your subject and I admired you for that and wanted to see what you could bring out in me. I also felt I wasn't "important" enough. So this is the flip side of the coin-people are inherently insecure-don't you think? After I stopped caring if you were ever going to take my picture-you did-the same old thing-you know?
    Second:
    People that are "elitest" are just people maybe you haven't gotten to know. I have never met so many inclusive beings as I have been introduced to in the last 6-8 months. This Tribe has been so welcoming and affirming to me personally-and maybe I'm an exception-I don't know since I'm so new to the scene. Yes there are people who are hard to get to know. Yes they look good and they look like crap too! We are all so different and that's what makes us all so great and what makes us appealing to the "outsider" who will pay money to look like we do. We all want to belong to something. We give each other our clothes and stuff and that creates a homeogination of this scene that others see as a group and they want to be a part of it-but they can't really unless the make the commitment and join.
    Third:
    If people really want to belong-let 'em get their shit together and come along! This Tribe has cleverly figured out a way to be outside the mainstream of society both financially and energetically and that has taken alot of work and support of each other. For those that can't make the break for whatever reason-it's okay for them to pick up a piece of it and take it home with them. ie, purchasing a pair of cool boots or a tutu or a bracelet or whatever. Commerce is the driving force of these festivals-did you pay for your ticket? Or did a friend get you in? Isn't that a bit elitest when you don't have to pay?
    Okay I'm tired of counting:
    If you even think that Symbiosis was a rave-think again. I'm in LA right now-resting up from Nocturnal Wonderland which in ONE night hosted 20,000 of LA's youngest and tripping-out teens. Oh yeah-there was the VIP lounge where you paid $250 per ticket to have a private booth. And it was sold out. Why the VIP? Why the seperatism? Because they could. There are alot of people who don't want to go "muggle surfing" and have the money to create space away from people they don't want to hang out with. I've NEVER seen that kind of seperatism in one of our tribes events. But then they've never been that big either. Unless you count Oregon Country Fair with it's night time pass sweep thing.
    Anyway-nothing is solved.
    I find it interesting that you've spent alot of time thinking about this and maybe only seeing what you want. Try looking for the friendliness and inclusiveness that does predominately shape the tribe we're in.....these "beautiful people from the future" are working their asses off to make a living-do you see that? If they aren't spending alot of energy to include everyone-maybe they're just tired. Or maybe their friend cards are full. I've had that happen before-to my surprise-where I've just had no time to spend with people I've known for years and not wanted to spend what little free time I had forging out new friendships. It's all good. No one is purposefully shunning or judging anyone. Birds flock and fish school. It's just the way of all things. People can hang out with whomever they wish.
    Thats my Dia-Tribe. Thanks for reading.
    • Re: Out with the PLUR and in with the Classism

      Sun, October 7, 2007 - 1:49 PM

      Hey Foxy,

      I'm confused. Below I pasted my original response is my reply to Stephen's blog. Seems like we agree :)
      As far as not taking photos of you here's a link to recent one I took of you and put some time into

      www.flickr.com/photos/kyl...1445498037/

      hope you like it.
      I think its perceptive of you to see how motivated many of us are by shyness and insecurity as opposed to being elitest. I myself am a super shy geek with a camera and often take pictures of people I know well or who have given me permission to photograph them or who've asked me to photograph them. I love it when people ask me to photograph them and we can create together.

      lots of love
      Kyle

      My reply from Stephen's original blog:



      Yes we are getting older, have more perspective, know more people, been in more scenes and maybe are less naive.

      I like what Orange had to say. After reading Orange’s post, which I identify with, I’m asking myself, Stephen, what are you asking? It’s clear you see something wrong but what exactly do you want to change? What changes do you want and what are you going to do yourself to make those changes?

      I think your essay is based on the unfounded assumption that there is a lower class and an upper class.
      If we throw that assumption out, then I really don’t see much of a problem except that maybe we all should be more welcoming.
      The community we are most associated with is itself exclusive …we want to be with people we can trust.
      Trust takes time. If I spend time with people I’m attracted to, generally that trust and connection develops. There are exceptions. Some people are climbing the ladder or are full of them selves. I think those people are the exception not the rule and in such cases I generally ignore them. There are plenty of other friendly supportive creative fun people in our scene. Another way to gain trust is to have connections. This makes sense as well. If a friend’s good friend comes into a group, I have a basis for trusting that new person and I have someone I can turn to for some level of accountability for the new person. If I meet a total stranger, sometime it just clicks and I fall into trusting them, but often I spend time sorting out who they are. I want to know they are not some sexual pervert/predator who is going to cause damage or some psychopath like the guy who kills several people at a gather in Seattle a few years ago. Or any number of negative people who've stumbled into various parties or BM camps.

      And, to put things in perspective, when I walk in downtown Portland on the weekend or go to a typical bar or club and see the general lack of mindfulness, blustering rowdiness, drunkenness etc I think our scene looks pretty great comparatively with it’s music, creativity, better social equality and general mindfulness about the world despite its drug issues and social pettiness.

      Some people might seem elevated because they hang out with the DJs or such, or they have cool cloths, but often those are the people are involved in making the cloths, making the music, supplying sacramentals or are the people who put the most work into the gatherings.
      The different groups of people make sense to me because people have different interests, proclivities, areas of work and levels of trust. Just as there is a trance stage and an breaks/glitch stage there are groups with-in the break/glitch stage itself.
      I like what Benno said about there not being much grinding on the trance floor. The more barriers come down, like with sexuality, the more I want to know people I’m sharing that space with or know that I can trust people to respect my boundaries that I do keep. Same could be said for psychedelic experiences.
      I’ve heard people ask why the scene isn’t more open but it makes sense to me. It takes trust to be really open and trust takes time. One can’t just waltz into a party and be taken under everyone’s wing generally unless everyone is on E (which use to be the case in the 90s, no – is that what we are nostalgic for?).
      Another factor is that as I know more and more people I spend less and less time with new people. When I go to an event there are usually a bunch of people I haven’t seen in a while or have been emailing with and I want to make connections with those people. That leaves less and less time for meeting new people though I enjoy it when it happens. On the other hand when I first went to BM for example, I didn’t know anyone and would talk to everyone who I had a chance to meet, which wasn’t that many since I was (am) so shy.
      Our scene doesn’t have written rules or laws to hold someone accountable to (like a religion or legal system) nor do we have guardians generally (like cops). We have some generally unspoken ambiguous codes of conduct and a social web of awareness based on knowing each other to some extent where we watch out for each other.

      I find it most inspiring when actions start with the speaker. I remember one instance of a girl asking for money for a just cause and telling us why the cause was important – no one was interested – then we chatted about how to better communicated and she changed her story to how she herself was going to make the changes for this cause in the world – we were all inspired and wanted to find ways to support her.

      My reaction to these “class tendencies” is to try and be open to everyone whether they are “in” or “out” , accept anyone whether in a leather or jeans, encourage a level field, befriend (instead of putting on a pedestal or judging them) the people I’m attracted to and brush off those same people if I feel they getting too caught up in themselves. I don’t always succeed despite myself and I’ve acted less than noble at times. I remember FP’s BM party a 3 years ago, when I acted a bit snobbish myself, which stemmed from the relief I finally felt to be part of a crew. Ironic.
      At BM this year, I had a different interaction where I had been on stage shooting photos of a DJ and ended up outside talking to some kids about that DJ and the music. They wanted see that DJ among others where the lived and I was encouraging them organize it. They we like “oh, we can’t do that. We don’t know him. He’ll never come to our city”. I encouraged them to make friends with the DJ explaining that this is a *community* and it’s all about friendship and connection. If someone, say a DJ, is too full of themselves, then forget-em. There’s plenty of good music in our scene made my super friendly people to worry about those that get caught up in them selves.

      “people from many different walks of life found a space to shed the layers of bullshit of the everyday world to express themselves, to find “peace, love, unity and respect” and be welcomed as the freak, geek, weirdo, etc that they truly were”

      I think the open fluffy kind of experiences still exists – for example I think you would find this feeling stronger at a Rhythm Society gathering than at an El Circo gathering, but is that what you really want? Beyond the openness of the RS, there are new groups where people are discovering open acceptance and their inner dancing geek. I heard good things along these lines about Rhythmwave (from Marin) at BM, I’m sure there are plenty of gatherings that continue the old rave energy though maybe not as much as the 90s. There are always new people coming into the experience with that starry eyed look from a revelatory way of being.

      I have no personal experience to talk about the 90s E culture, because I wasn’t there, but from what I’ve have experience and from what I’ve heard,
      one wonderful thing about the rave culture was because of E, everyone was super accepting. I think E usage has fallen off among the people I see the most or at least the attitude and experience while they are on E is very different due to past experience and or change in it’s effects.
      I think some people, myself included, had the reaction of “I don’t necessarily want to hug everybody in the room” or “hugging everyone in the room is not that cool” and the more people with that attitude the cooler and more reserved the interactions.

      I also feel that because of cooling attitudes towards E the usage of psychedelics is no longer overshadowed thus creating sometimes awkward social interactions. A know a number of reserved reactions of people come from various psychedelics they are on. That cold shoulder they gave me might have been, and often has turn out to be because I looked like an 8 foot praying mantis or what-ever and they were having a hard time holding it together.

      I do think the shifting drug tendencies (E,L,Coke,Speed,G,K) change the kinds of interactions and groups that form but that’s a pretty theoretical unsubstantiated feeling.

      I’m naturally attracted to beauty and if someone has on beautiful cloths I’ll be more attracted to them than someone in ordinary cloths, especially at places like BM where I’m blissed out by all the beautiful creativity. Why are visuals different than music? Why is it OK for musicians have fans and sell their music but when it comes to couture the fans are somehow shallow and the vendors are corrupting the scene? I myself have started wearing more jeans and t-shirts at events because I want to be low key since I’m no longer single and as such don’t seek the same kind of interactions. Where as dressing crazy, getting attention use to be beneficial to meeting people of the opposite sex, I’d rather now, dress more casual and have mellow conversations with friends in the background than cutting it up crazy on the forefront of the dance floor and flirting.
      I do have issues with the idea of wearing something that cost $1000 to a gathering and personally would encourage spending less and having more personal connection to the cloths I’m wearing. At the same time I think the expensive cloths are beautiful and love the way they look. I think one possible solution would be to try and sell more to the outside world and bring money into the scene verse selling in the scene to many people who really don’t have the means. Shifting our money and resources around inside the scene won’t bring any prosperity but selling to a larger “outside” audience might. Its ironic though that any such activities are often labeled selling out or has bad connotations.
      Some DJ’s charge $1000 for an hour set for a bunch of people . Someone else pays an
      • Re: Out with the PLUR and in with the Classism

        Fri, October 12, 2007 - 10:47 AM
        Found a cool follow up to this on the bassnectar tribe
        bassnectar.tribe.net/thread/...27f17a75
        from Karl "Baba" , pasted here:


        This is a great topic, as it makes us look at ourselves as well as at others. I feel like I have a certain perspective as an outsider since I have only associated with this scene since the 2006 Burning Man and suffer from being

        Damn Old
        Not Burning Hot
        Not Rich

        Yet, I feel like I have a certain Spirit and I have Love. I can certainly relate to the dynamic expressed in the original post. I’ve been thinking of it since I had a conversation with a woman friend who is totally hot and totally fashionable, who yet said she felt a cool distance coming from a certain crowd (who looked just like her) that she described at the “Galactic Supermodels” It put me on the lookout for elitism and thinking of this subject. What I’ve noticed so far:

        1. The further the distance you look at another tribe, the more elitist they look. The more I was able to hang out with different crowds. The more wonderful and cool I found them to be. I found it hard to find real elitists up close, only from a distance.

        2. That all tribes are filled with individuals with varying strengths and weaknesses. Some have the vision and heart to see beneath the surfaces and some feel insecure and need to protect their social status through association.

        3. There is a certain element of protecting personal space and time in running with your own tribe. A friend who is in a famous band might have an invisible aura of being hard to approach because hundreds of folks would enjoy cozying up to him, and that would make life hard. Really beautiful women can often feel safe and unmolested when then stick within their tribe which values respectful and consensual connections.

        4. Our projections of insecurity and rejection create that reality in our social interactions. We connect easier with those who we expect will accept us.

        5. Whether in others, or ourselves, our false illusion of personal identity and status (positive or negative) is a slave master that limits our love and joy.

        I remember being on this art car at BM 2006 where they were turning riders away due to the fact they could only take so many folks and they had a big camp. They were beautiful folks and I'm sure some felt rejected. Yet I saw these same folks go out of their way and take extra time to get help for total "uncool" strangers that they found confused or dehydrated.

        I’m grateful and blessed to have met such amazing people within the subcultures I frequent. It takes time and openness. The more my acquaintances know me, the more I’m trusted and become friends.

        I am torn by the demands of fashion. I hate the idea of conforming to fit in with those I like to hang with. On the other hand, it seems that folks look for these external cues of fashion to affirm that a person is acquainted with the values and culture of a certain tribe. It feels safer for a woman to know that if she meets a guy with a warm hug and kiss on the cheek, that he won’t follow her around like a dog in heat for the rest of the night.

        So I strike a balance. I find some feathers in nature when she blesses me with some, buy some interesting fabric on my world travels, but won’t wear leather pants. Fact is, all cultures have fashion cues, even the jeans and T-shirts crowd. The enlightened ones in any group stay open and value the expressions that are different than their own norm.

        Peace and Love

        Karl "Baba"
        • Re: Out with the PLUR and in with the Classism

          Fri, October 12, 2007 - 12:15 PM
          Thanks for reposting that Kyle

          Elitism..real or preceived..is like many problems, has an aspect of Understanding and an aspect of Action/Solution.

          To address the Action/Solution side of things, I'd like to suggest that:

          Even if we feel like we need to limit our circle of friends and protect our time and personal space, we can always be aware of other people's feelings and act more sensitively, honing our social skills to manage our life more compassionately.

          Creating general harmony and cooperation among the different subcultures in the Music scene may serve us well if our political/energy/environmental situation were to deteriorate. We can create power if we have some solidarity.

          Social skills are like musical skills, we often have some inborn talent but we can always improve and refine. Let's keep looking at ways to be welcoming and accepting without opening ourselves to an onslaught of sexual attention, or loss of personal space and time.

          Perhaps even being aware of the issue is enough to make for a kinder-gentler coexistance of subcultures.

          Unless you just don't care for other's feelings, in which case you can form a tribe with those feel likewise.

          More Love and good feelings are good for Us and good for the World. It just makes life sweeter.

          Peace and love

          karl
          • Re: Out with the PLUR and in with the Classism

            Fri, October 12, 2007 - 8:13 PM
            Interesting topic Kyle....for sure.
            I think the bottom line is that we all want the same thing: LOVE and RESPECT.
            Also, we are all drawn to like beings.
            We all love and appreciate beauty...it comes in all forms and is interpreted in the eye of the beholder.
            It is a fact of life that there are social classes, not just in 'our' scene but across all cultures and nations.
            We have no control over where we are born or who we are born to!
            As we get 'older'...'fitting in' doesn't seem to matter as much.

            Hopefull what we can all gain from this discussion is that we are 'all the same' and for our hearts and minds to be open to giving as well as receiving and not to be judgemental of one another.

            I would have to also comment on the fact that I too have noticed that you tend to photograph the 'beautiful' people and therefore promote what it is you are condemning...where are all the photos of the beautiful, fat, older, less wealthy, less popular people?? Just asking? It's not a criticism...just an observation. AND.....I really love your photos and what you capture!
            To me....everyone is beautiful and I love the essence you capture in the faces.

            On that note....I'm going to go hang out with my fat, hairy Mexican friend who is into country music!!!!

            LOVE YOU!!! :-)
            • Re: Out with the PLUR and in with the Classism

              Sat, October 13, 2007 - 2:13 AM
              hey guys- remember- kyle reposted that from stephen's blog... not his own! he hasn't "condemned" anyone!
              • Re: Out with the PLUR and in with the Classism

                Sat, October 13, 2007 - 10:23 AM
                So says the Muse....

                The conversation is not something new and he owned the words he posted. The truth is those who might be offended may have found or find themselves slipped into the lifestyle. We have all done it and we all want to fit in...the bottom line as Gwen put it is that we all want respect and Love. You get to get up everyday and decide what costume your are going to wear...what dance you want to dance and what song you want to sing....no right or wrong just choices.

                Love Fat Hairy Mexican friend who loves country music
                • Re: Out with the PLUR and in with the Classism

                  Sat, October 13, 2007 - 11:09 AM
                  Thanks Shira for bringing that to my attention...I did think that Kyle had written that and was surprised actually that he felt that way or had those observations.
                  This is not a new topic. I went to BM for the first time in 2002 and camped with Woonami and had the most amazing time of my life!
                  Encountered the 'beautiful' people along with all the rest of us 'plain' folks and didn't feel any descrepencies! But I was surprised to read on the Woonami website comments about this. The 'beautiful' vs. the 'plain'....El Circo vs. everyone else!
                  My experience has been that we create our own impressions based mainly on our own insecurities and judgements.
                  Mostly if you are intimitaded by someone elses appearance and you don't approach them because of it, it is you that is creating that attitude of judgement and seperatism within the community.
                  I have not found one 'beautiful' person within out community to not be open and willing to receive....sometimes it requires us to take the initiative and approach them as if they are not 'better' but just another person worth getting to know. What I have found is that their inner beauty is just as radiant as their outer beauty!!
                  I think we spend way too much time on this subject actually.
                  Who cares what one is wearing, how skinny they are, how young they are, how beautiful they are!!
                  Thank god we ALL are beautiful, unique beings who just want to be loved~!!

                  Sorry Kyle if I misinterpreted your previous posting.
  • Re: Out with the PLUR and in with the Classism

    Sun, October 14, 2007 - 12:22 PM
    i recently spent some time with a paleontologist and came away with a greater appreciation of rocks and dirt. if you line up little boxes of different kinds of dirt and look at them, you start to notice cool differences and you begin to appreciate the difference and then begin to develop opinion of what kind of dirt and rock most appeals to you...

    i watched shira pound metal one day, and then she showed me the metal up close and how it changes when you stretch it, and heat it and work it,,, kinda like personalitiy... i looked closely at it, very close... i will never look at metal the same way anymore.

    i think this discussion is good, cause physics shows us that the closer you look at something, the more infinite it becomes and the more opinion you can develop on to infinitum.

    culture is nothing more than a collection of opinion. and when you line it up together it all becomes more beautiful.
    its the difference that is the beauty.

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