self is magic

topic posted Wed, August 6, 2008 - 9:16 PM by 
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  • Re: self is magic

    Sat, August 9, 2008 - 1:25 PM
    For some I would gather that the material in this paper might appear to be somewhat terse, which might explain why nobody has as yet begun to kick around any of the ideas presented in this paper, which I might add, for me were most thought-provoking. Seems a bit of a shame as many of the ideas focused upon are ones we've brushed up against in this tribe.

    One, in particular, has most recently been served up for discussion, that of paranormal phenomena, ESP type stuff, more specifically 'spoon bending'. And, of course, the underlying concept that our physio-mental dynamic of our experience is spun for us rather than by us - the classic free will / determinism dichotomy.

    I've gone ahead and lifted several passages, any of which in itself could become a thread on its own.

    "Human action is a kind of magic, an astonishing ability to think of something and thereby make it happen."

    "This is something that sometimes can feel quite willful, and at other times can feel absentmindedly automatic."

    "For the perception of apparent mental causation, the thought should be consistent with the action, (appear to) occur just before the action, and not be accompanied by other potential causes." ... my words in parens

    "...tendency to claim authorship for the successes of others...a general process of mind underlying belief in paranormal phenomena..."

    "The belief that on is influencing events also can be enhanced by prior action-consistent thoughts that are not conscious."

    "...the self will be seen as causal when the thought of action occurs just prior to the action..."

    "...a scientific behavior of human understanding could potentially ruin everything. The magic will be undone, the glorious human spirit will be cheapened, demystified, and rendered grotesque."

    "The magic of the self does not generally go away when we explain action. In fact, the self seems remarkable resistant to reports of its demise."

    "...despite my personal flurry of illusion busting, I remain every bit as susceptible to the experience of conscious will as the next person."

    "It may be that the illusion of conscious will is persistent because we honor so deeply what people mean to do that we readily overlook the causal forces that have impinged on them to force their action ... apparent mental causation..."

    "...perhaps it is because it has been bred into us as an evolutionary process that has found the magic of the experience of will to be useful for the propagation of members of our species..."
    • Re: self is magic

      Sat, August 9, 2008 - 3:13 PM
      >"The magic of the self does not generally go away when we explain action. In fact, the self seems remarkable resistant to reports of its demise." <

      that made me laugh!

      actually, i downloaded the pdf and then promptly forgot to open it.

      as for the "magic of will", what it comes down to for me is that moment when i begin a thing, the deliberateness of that action, where the action is being done pretty much regardless of my thinking or intent, wherein i do nonetheless detect a bunch of energy, and illusory or not, it impresses me. an impression is made.

      we really are in the funhouse, seems to me. mirrors made of play-doh, or something.
      • Re: self is magic

        Sat, August 9, 2008 - 5:09 PM
        i currently am more interested not in breaking through the illusion of self and free will, but in teasing out what adaptive functions they play and why they are there. as i wrote in the other thread, though they're not "uncaused causes," that doesn't mean they don't cause anything at all. obviously consciousness, self, and will are phenomenal ways of talking about particular neural pathways and signal patterns. all "illusions" have phenomenal substance, or else there'd be nothing to talk about.

        so, what do you think? why do these things persist? why did they evolve? why does "the self seem remarkable resistant to reports of its demise"?
        • Re: self is magic

          Sat, August 9, 2008 - 5:50 PM
          hmmm.....because the play's the thing.
          • Re: self is magic

            Sat, August 9, 2008 - 6:06 PM
            well, do other animals have the same things going on? if the "play's the thing" is the answer, then they do. but i don't think they do, so now we have to talk about which play is going on for us and why.
            • Re: self is magic

              Sat, August 9, 2008 - 6:37 PM
              why don't they? i don't think it takes self-consciousness of any certain level to "play".
              • Re: self is magic

                Sat, August 9, 2008 - 6:50 PM
                well then your answer has nothing to do with self-consciousness proper.

                maybe things took off with representation. once you have words and symbols for things, there's no reason not to start applying them to yourself and your actions.
                • Re: self is magic

                  Sun, August 10, 2008 - 9:42 AM
                  maybe not, but it still has to do with perceived interaction with other stuff.

                  but you have a point with representation: language is a virus, as old uncle bill used to say.
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                    Re: self is magic

                    Mon, August 11, 2008 - 12:03 AM
                    remember laurie anderson's "home of the brave" movie? burroughs was in it, and she has a song called "language is a virus." i can't believe that movie hasn't been put out on DVD yet!!! it's some of her best shit. "white lily" is spectacular! anderson has some great work.

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