"I'm curious, from your own thoughts in everyday language, how would you describe the contrast between free will and determinism?"
Charles asked this in another thread and it seemed worthy of its own so I'll take a stab.
In my experience it is the "I" that cognizes and decides whether to follow, or not follow, the innermost yearnings of the heart/mind. This mind may freely determine, and both create causes, and choose among effects. Of course this presents a moral dilemma, because what if my heart/mind truly desired to kill? This is one way to see that evil does exist in the world - if I may use a simple dichotomy of good/evil - for there are many example of this in the news. Thankfully the vast majority of people exist in a grayness between the two extremes. I also think that this is where science breaks down, because it has not yet discovered and objectified the "I" that is free to choose, but only the chemical reactions that follow. Some traditions call it magic, or light, or spirit, and it does seem to exist, only in a way that we don't conventionally understand. It doesn't inherently exist, yet it arises moment to moment to moment as an endless continuum. My experience is that most people are far to distracted to maintain any awareness of this "I" and instead base their 'choices' upon habit and pleasure and are thus exist in a world that is largely predetermined and finite.
Charles asked this in another thread and it seemed worthy of its own so I'll take a stab.
In my experience it is the "I" that cognizes and decides whether to follow, or not follow, the innermost yearnings of the heart/mind. This mind may freely determine, and both create causes, and choose among effects. Of course this presents a moral dilemma, because what if my heart/mind truly desired to kill? This is one way to see that evil does exist in the world - if I may use a simple dichotomy of good/evil - for there are many example of this in the news. Thankfully the vast majority of people exist in a grayness between the two extremes. I also think that this is where science breaks down, because it has not yet discovered and objectified the "I" that is free to choose, but only the chemical reactions that follow. Some traditions call it magic, or light, or spirit, and it does seem to exist, only in a way that we don't conventionally understand. It doesn't inherently exist, yet it arises moment to moment to moment as an endless continuum. My experience is that most people are far to distracted to maintain any awareness of this "I" and instead base their 'choices' upon habit and pleasure and are thus exist in a world that is largely predetermined and finite.
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Re: Free Will and Determinism walk into a bar...
Sat, March 8, 2008 - 8:35 AMAll your thus are belong to us... -
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Re: Free Will and Determinism walk into a bar...
Sat, March 8, 2008 - 9:29 AMsometimes I am not very intelligible.
New Sunshine
+last thoughts, moments before dying
-focus on gravity pulling me apart
+lost in space, hull breach
-this will screw the project
+I’m expendable, obviously
-why has the sun stopped glowing?
“I’m killing the lights, not you.”
&the memory continues
#it’s incredible, so many lives
&the lies believe they are real
#eternal, neither created or destroyed
&the new light is only warm
#it touches me, and I’m reborn
“I’m giving you every chance of life, not death.”
@peace, nor hate conceives a cause
*new sun sees with thy eyes
@ease, nor anxious to feel any fear
*our very own moon brings us sleep
@dreams, at once as real as waking
*we’ve always known and believed
“I’m here and always been, not apart.”
When I think I'm in trouble, 'I' saves me every time, so far, so good, to be alive and in love.
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Re: Free Will and Determinism walk into a bar...
Sat, March 8, 2008 - 5:12 PMmichael wrote: ...My experience is that most people are far to distracted to maintain any awareness of this "I" and instead base their 'choices' upon habit and pleasure and are thus exist in a world that is largely predetermined and finite....
>
I've always found these folks to be extraordinarily frustrating and yet somehow intriguing, though often in an "allow me to bang my head against a brick wall a few thousand times" sort of way. -
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Re: Free Will and Determinism walk into a bar...
Sat, March 8, 2008 - 6:48 PMSome fellow I once studied with said he saw a greater difference between some people than he saw between people and animals. Or was it the other way around? Don't know exactly where that came from.
So, michael and skooter, seems you're loosely making a distinction between two groups of people - not that I'm necessarily disagreeing with you. Though, some questions come to mind... It seems you're saying that many, if not most, out there are simply on autopilot. That they're more or less machines, reacting without thought, consideration, presence of being and mind. And then there's another group, the chosen ones, that are somehow able to get their fingernails in the crack just enough, to insert the tiniest of monkey-wrenches in the gears so there's the slightest fraction of a split second to make what would appear to be a choice, to somehow react in a way that would at least appear indicative of a higher right, a more humanish type of response. And maybe you are right. Seems like that's one of the things we're here to discuss.
Anyway, do you think what we're speaking about is illusory? Do you think this special sense is a way we deal with differences between one another. Have we done something to our selves, singed enough synapses so that the way we perceive and respond is as mechanical to us as how they appear to respond mechanical to them? Is what appears to be this infinitesimal gap inserted between our sensations and responses expandable? In other words - can we extend the time needed to evoke a more appropriate reaction? And what I see as the sixty-four thousand dollar question - do we actually have any real control over the process or are we looking at a phenomenon that's solely based upon our destiny? Is it out of our hands?
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Re: Free Will and Determinism walk into a bar...
Sat, March 8, 2008 - 8:33 PM
Charles,
A Sufi master was once asked what's the difference between a Sufi and a regular person... his answer was "What's the difference between a slice of cheese and a tree?"
Sometimes it seems some humans can have conciousness lower than a rock, and whilst others can be beyond beyond.
Though Charles, I'm very curious... how have you come to see life through determinism... more accurately, so you also see life as pre-determined?
I would like to better understand the subtle parts of your understanding of determinism... I've dug deep within myself and the verdict isn't clear.
Sometimes I think what you mean by determinism is what I would label as "life happening"... here's an example...
"without desire the geese fly over the lake, without desire the lake reflects them"
I've also noticed that in different parts of my life, when I was in certain very present states, things were just happening... my body would get up, walk somewhere, say something to someone... I would be in this perfect "flow" and I had no idea what I would do next... to my best understanding I would categorize (that's what mind's are good at) this as the Vedantic phrase of "do nothing, get everything"
but Sir Charles... you are one living person who I know has had a long history of deep inner inquiry who stands by determinism... if you wouldn't mind sharing your thoughts for the rest of us... that would be much appreciated
:-)
with love,
ramiel -
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Re: Free Will and Determinism walk into a bar...
Sun, March 9, 2008 - 1:47 PMWell, you digging into yourself and me digging into myself are two very different things. And this is not to say that either of us finds answers more objectively correct because the answers we come up with are correct for us both given our circumstances at that moment in time. It seems more important to ask the questions rather than arrive at a place where you think you know the answer - because - at least in the way I look at it - there is no such thing that knows. That entity is always in the midst of transformation as is the vehicle which is observed, the laws of nature determining both - what you might term 'our consciousness' the undulating (and mechanical) intersection of the two - which are really one.
We can try to characterize for ourselves, make our best guess as to how we interpret our relationship to a concept such as determinism, but that's all it is - our best guess at that moment. As you've surmised, I've evolved a specific take on what I perceive to be my relationship with what I would consider the deterministic universe, and I'd say that that take for me is as deterministically mechanical as that which I'm attempting to characterize.
What you seem to be hinting at when you use the term 'pre-determinism' might be an infinity of waves (some close, some far away) that are spherically encroaching upon our point of focus of the universe. They are still in our futures though they are the pasts of others (living, dead and unborn), hurling toward us, coming in to focus possibly for a fleeting moment of presence, after which they fall into our pasts, into the futures of others at different locals of time and space.
"without desire the geese fly over the lake, without desire the lake reflects them"
This certainly works for me ;-) -
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Re: Free Will and Determinism walk into a bar...
Sun, March 9, 2008 - 11:43 PM
Charles,
You are right we both have different points of perspective in these realities.
I am perceiving that your focus point in a 3-Dimensional illustration would be near the tangent of the core of the Math Universe
while my perception is using two eye's (two mind states, that of heart mind and that of math/intellect mind) and in order to be able to maintain the knowledge of the limitation of both, I must look at them both through a vertical view... as the vertical view allows me to puncture beyond the circumference, while in your view of depth you are staring into an infinite void/vacuum of mathematical patterns... certainly you will have a very different and profound view that I would not have from this perspective, though your perspective is more detailed it has this at the cost/loss of not having the heart mind view.
perhaps I made no sense in what I wrote... I feel on each of these posts where I'm in this super-conscious state I need to say this as my disclaimer so that people don't think I'm a lunatic... I'm quite logical and rational once I'm back to my daily conciousness. It is just in this state I ask questions, and I begin seeings... what people call visions... and each visions comes with meanings... I just questions and answers keep appearing... I know now how every question has within it been already encapsulated with the answer... though I know this from this state, I can not understand this... I will understand this from my math mind state... but I will only know it without understanding it from the heart mind
perhaps what I just wrote better laid out the context.... foundation of the heart mind at the edges of math mind
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Re: Free Will and Determinism walk into a bar...
Sun, March 9, 2008 - 11:57 PM
I got it...
Math Mind is that of this world, the mundane/physical/gross
The Heart Mind is an intermediary... hence being in the Heart Mind one is able to receive Essence knowledge and translate it through the Heart into the Math Mind...
Hence the Heart can be dominated by the Lord Below (Satan/Math Mind/Maya/Illusion) or the Lord Above (God/Absolute Self/Ultimate Self/The Truth)... though it is pre-destined that the Essence (i.e. God/Truth) will ultimately win over the Heart as Essence is the beginning of all these
This is not to say that Math Mind is bad... nor to say the Heart Mind which holds a Gate to the No-Mind/Truth is good
each of these Mind's Understands one of its realities... it is important that the Math Mind realize the Universal Clockwork of Pre-Determined Existence that it exists in... this allows for Gap's/Black-Holes to occur in the Math Universe allowing for the Heart Universe to penetrate and make shifts, one of those being the anomaly built as a theory known as "Evolution" through Charles Darwin (any pun here that Charles is also into Determinism? self-inquiry, no one here to answer). This is how one can come to be conscious of the Heart Mind
I'm shifting from one mind state to the other back and forth... the more I do this, it's like a new state of consciousness is being born from the two... as if the two states are merging into each other... and more and more this essence awareness builds from it
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Re: Free Will and Determinism walk into a bar...
Mon, March 10, 2008 - 12:01 AM
Though I see it would be possible to maintain two full depth views of Heart Universe and Math Universe... though whenever viewed as depth, the infinite length is seen as infiniteness.... though from a vertical view, it is possible to go beyond both... a gate to no-mind
I have to say, from my logical perspective what I just wrote sounds like what an insane person I would expect would speak... though I can clearly switch back to my Heart Mind and what I wrote makes full sense... switching back to Math Mind... it makes no sense, I'm a lunatic... I am nuts... and it's not even full moon tonight -
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Re: Free Will and Determinism walk into a bar...
Mon, March 10, 2008 - 12:07 AM
I just realized even my example of the vertical and depth views of Heart and Mind Universes can make absolutely no sense once read from the Math Mind perspective.
It is self-evident to me at this time that there is no way to transmit the Truth Knowledge from the Heart Mind through Math Mind logic/intellect/theory into words... my words only are pointing towards finding the Truth once you are in the Heart Mind... though they will make no sense and I will only sound like someone who should be in an Asylum to the reader who is in the Math Mind/Intellect state
It's much like how we go to sleep and we dream... in the dreaming world, we have different experiences... and even within the dream world there are many variations... all kinds of dreams, lucid dreams (lucid dreams being those who are conscious of their awake mind while they are dreaming)
In the same way I am in a lucid state of Samadhi where my ego-consciousness is remaining in tact (somewhat!) while the Essence cognizant of Essence mind is there overlapping. Though as I shift my focus, at each time a different Mind is the dominate one... I guess this means I am able to shift consciousness from different [Ss]elfs's... though when I shift in mid-sentence... that's what I'm a full lunatic in both worlds
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Re: Free Will and Determinism walk into a bar...
Mon, March 10, 2008 - 12:18 AM
I just heard a string of words.... as I began to listen to them, I realized they are the words of my consciousness... the words which I'm typing to you right now! I heard my own words like an audio tape being played on a audio system... it was as if this mind story just continues like a string... a mathematical unfolding string
I see there are pattern's even to my own consciousness... hence why the realization of Essence is pre-destined... a.k.a. Self-Realization is our "birth right"
So this again goes back to the point... I am again being illustrated by Essence that even my own consciousness is pre-destined which is the Heart Mind's version of "Pre-Determination" in the Math Mind.
The pre-destination of the Heart Mind appears to have more fluidity, hence it allows for myriad versions of the same Universe to happen at the same time... it appears to be a bit more chaotic... though over all... just as Nature has Season's to balance it self... it only keeps a certain number of Universe combinations in tact at a time... the most balanced (un-destroyed, un-plagued, un-dark-ages) Universes are the most dominate ones... hence that is how the Universe which Darwin is a parcel of is also going through Evolution... though it is not possible to put the Universe under a Microscope and compare it with other Universes... though evolution in this way is also happening... I believe I recall the Tibetan's had written about multiple Universes being active at the same time...
In this way, even the Heart Mind begins to look Mathematical to the Math Mind
Perhaps I'm just documenting the process of my own realization... who knows what the verdict will be on Self-Will and Determinism
I've hit the wall again... the wall that is Essence beyond all reason/rational
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Re: Free Will and Determinism walk into a bar...
Mon, March 10, 2008 - 12:37 AM
at some point the Math is Solved... there may appear to be infinite-ness within the Math Mind, though those will just end up being loops going around the Math taking infinite paths... they are still within Math as infinite... they do not transcend the Math Universe
though at some point, the Painter has finished His Mathematical Illustration
at this point, His Heart is content (as God said it was good, so he rested on the 7th day).
He Rested because his work was done, and His Heart fulfilled its Destiny
And so the Heart also dissolves back to Essence
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Re: Free Will and Determinism walk into a bar...
Mon, March 10, 2008 - 12:42 AM
Essence only is the knower of all Truths
as such, Essence transmits the "Gut Feeling" and the "Knowing within Samadhi" as a means to guide the Self Seeker back to itSelf
Hence as the Self Seeker (manifestation of all [mM]inds] seeks for Truth through all manners/dimensions/states-of-consciousness, it is the Essence itself which validates inwardly through a "Truth Meter" mechanism if this is True or not. If Truth according to Essence, then the Self Seeker is rewarded with transcending to a deeper layer of the Onion... keep peeling away!
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Re: Free Will and Determinism walk into a bar...
Mon, March 10, 2008 - 1:21 AMRamiel, for one who is experienced at entering deep meditative states it becomes rather trivial to guide the mind into inexplicable places with respect to what one might term ordinary mind. Whether you want to call it samadhi, super-consciousness, emotional transcendence or whatever. When you attempt to contrast such states with the logical or mathematical or ordinary mind - you end up trying to compare experiences which can't be, nor do I think they were meant to be. The problem is that you can produce answers for yourself in geometrically designed Technicolor and to find an answer to a question you can travel to another universe with different life forms and those operating under different laws while your earthly from mixes and and turns to vapor.
Over time It actually can become easy to become totally blissed out. At that point one has to ask their self whether a predisposition with such states are becoming more a curse than a blessing. Before answering yourself remember that even the ordinary mind can be quite a trickster. -
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Re: Free Will and Determinism walk into a bar...
Mon, March 10, 2008 - 9:47 AM>Over time It actually can become easy to become totally blissed out. At that point one has to ask their self whether a predisposition with such states are becoming more a curse than a blessing. Before answering yourself remember that even the ordinary mind can be quite a trickster.<
well said, charles.
the whole thing about our "aha"s that often goes unconsidered is that higher states - even the ultimate, enlightenment - is just the beginning. the messy world still exists, and it behooves us to remain engaged for the duration. otherwise you're just a blissed-out escapee. -
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Re: Free Will and Determinism walk into a bar...
Mon, March 10, 2008 - 10:23 AM
I do not see how I'm an escapee when I'm able to maintain logical mind in full tact while in unison allowing different states to work. I do admit, sometimes I like to shut off the logical mind as much as possible to allow the different states have their space... it takes quite a bit of effort and energy to maintain both at the same time.
Having access to multiple dimensions beyond the logical/math mind just broadens my perspective, and it is still aspects of the mind. The logical mind is easily in tact.
Reading bliss... I've gone to extremes of both bliss and pain years ago, neither of two had any effect on me anymore, the "ananda kosha" was burned up. So even in these 'blissful' states I easily remain logical... that's the point... if I lost myself to the bliss I wouldn't be able to maintain the other mind states... yet I also don't take the math/logical mind state so serious which allows the other's to co-exist.
While being able to adjust my mental states, I can change perspectives dramatically. For example, in one session I could see light being slowed down to the point that I could hear it landing, saw it in such slow motion that I could see the patterns of it. These are perspectives we all can have, and I realize this may sound a little nuts sometimes, but so did the proposition that earth was round at some point.
The "brick and mortar world" (as that's what Charles often calls it) is always calling and demanding that we stay grounded in it... the bills keep coming, and the body keeps asking for food and rest... and umm... pleasure :-) It is certainly important to balance all of this, and I do very much... though it's not a good idea to isolate and state out of the additional perspectives we have.
The logical mind does reach its end, and it surrenders at some point... Essence cognizant of itself rises as a new stream within the consciousness... and all of a sudden the real gateway of the present moment's consciousness opens... and I realize that our logical mind states are all as echo's of the "real". the "real" is never heard by the mind, only the echo of it is heard... i.e. the mind is living in the past/present... all I'm doing is bringing the mind as close to the edge of the present moment before it dissolves and keeping it there... that allows for some deeper knowledge to tinkle down into it
And... since all these different perspectives are functioning at the same time... there's a natural tendency within my being of trying to bring them all together and create some sort of harmony... there seems to be a natural tendency that once the mind knows its place, it stops asking questions (not that it gets any real answers)
Hence, I'm currently perceiving as Math and the Logical Mind to both be limited... and in both determinism exists. The case of free-will can't be made until the other perspectives open up.
It's like this...
Math is the many rocks and pebbles that gather at the Ocean's shore
Heart is like that of the Ocean, of how it fits within the rocks easily without disagreeing with them... it allows the Mind to have its Truth
Essence is that very subtle stream of wind that gently touches the skin of the Ocean and making the waves....
It is Essence which gives the Heart the intelligence to bare the Mind
In this way, Essence has full patience for the ignorance... it's like watching kids in front of a beach throw rocks at seagulls with tolerance
However, the Mind continues to throw rocks at the Ocean.... the rocks barely touch the Ocean
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Re: Free Will and Determinism walk into a bar...
Mon, March 10, 2008 - 7:24 PMhey ramiel, i wasn't speaking about you particularly when i responded to charles' post. tho your descriptions of all these states you play in is interesting.
logical mind is kind of a lovely construct, but it's just a function that comes and goes (for some of us more than others, clearly!) so i think the phrase its a bit misleading. in fact, the tricky thing about describing states is that we categorize them into neat little boxes that are a lot more fluid and overlapping than our concepts for them sometimes allow. awareness is going all over the place, IOW, as if that's what it's designed to do.
so these discreetly described states are fun, they're fascinating, but i'd be inclined to question whether any of its permutations reveal "truth". practical stuff, sure, but you can never stand at the end of the rainbow. same with the concept of "balance" - at what point do you think you've arrived? seems to me it's not just subjective but an always-moving target.
as was said, the mind is a trickster. all thought (imho) is a double-edged sword, in that it likely conceals as much as it reveals. this may even be its "purpose" in a manner of speaking.
good times. :-)
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Re: Free Will and Determinism walk into a bar...
Mon, March 10, 2008 - 8:10 PM
Thanks sulevay for your post
regarding states, there is much to be said... I wish sometimes I could just quit my work and devote my entire life to meditation and consciousness exploration... I spent 3 years doing 7 hours daily meditation at one point... I dearly miss those days sometimes... though I realize the journey now is a little different... some day in the future I may return
I would like to categorize states more in terms of how they play in the journey... rather than discuss the myriad infinite spectrum's of consciousness
first there are States... we enter alternate States which allows us to have additional perceptions of our-selves/enviornment
ultimately, enough States may lead to a Realization
once a Realization occurs... one escalates to a new "Station" of being rather than a "state"
the "Station" is such that once I've realized something there is no way for me to ever go back to before... just like I can not convince myself I have one hand, when I can clearly perceive I have two hands.
the Substance of States and Stations is Esoteric Knowledge.. about the secrets of existence and consciousness
about the veils of Reality, Illusion, and the Beyond
The Ultimate One to "convince" really is each of our own Selves... it is not important for me to convince anyone of anything regarding any of these points... I'm just sharing my views/perspectives and by hearing about other's views and perspectives it shifts mine sometimes
in fact, I'm still unsure about determinism
if in fact there is such a thing as Total Determinism... then realizing this would be a very BIG surrender to "what is happening"
It would be like I'm a leaf on a great tree of free-will thinkers... the tree is standing at the height of a hill next to a giant water-fall
the wind blows and I detach from the "free-will" tree and glide through the air
the wind blows me towards the water
the water lifts me, and I swim "merrily, merrily, merrily, life's but a dream" ... or should I say "life's but a stream"
and here's my point about the "stream"
that "stream" of consciousness where Essence is cognizant of itself... this of course would not have made any sense to me no matter how many times I read and contemplated it 2 months ago. It is an experience which had to take place for me to know what I'm talking about; an experience that is in the process of really shifting my consciousness... already much shift has taken place. And I doubt unless anyone has this experience, they will know what I'm talking about; since I myself would have no idea what I'm saying.
It is now that I understand the Sufi poetry that stated "If the Whole is likened to the Ocean, and the part to a drop, the sufi says that witnessing the Ocean with the eye of a drop is impossible. However, when the drop becomes one with the Ocean, it sees the Ocean with the eye of the Ocean."
I finally realized what they meant that only the the eye of the Ocean can see the Ocean... otherwise impossible
Essence cognizant of itself... Essence remembers itself... Spirit recognizes itself as Spirit
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Re: Free Will and Determinism walk into a bar...
Tue, March 11, 2008 - 11:12 PMRamiel, our perspectives differ somewhat with relation to states. From what it appears you’re saying, you see states as a clarification of perception that can be developed, enabling one to more vividly, more deeply appreciate experience. I think I see a state as more of a deterministic form of genetic expression as it mates with our environment. It seems to me that rather than actively choosing to be in a state, we naturally gravitate toward people, groups, ideas and locals that provide the opportunities for us to express the conditions of our inner worlds, conditions we find ourselves in rather than create. I see what you refer to as the rational mind as instantaneously configuring our thought processes ‘after-the-fact’, causing us believe we’ve made the decisions, when in actuality – any situation could not have unfolded other that it did. It seems that our minds stitch together stories so blindingly fast as to the 'whys' and ‘hows’ that they appear to be true beyond a shadow of a doubt – at least to us.
Some people are naturally inclined to meditate, and literally become experts from the time they are children, and they generally find themselves (without really a say) in situations that promote and foster these innate tendencies. Others simply can't effectively meditate regardless of their apparent desire or the amount of assistance they might receive from others. The cultivation of the art for some is just not part of their nature.
It would appear that our states, from the grossest to the most rarefied, are all superposed upon one another, and the perspective a person finds their self residing is but their life playing itself out at a given moment. Again, I don’t think this is something we have under our immediate control – as in, ‘could you have responded to that last sentence in any other way than you did at that moment’? And, you alone, experienced that now-fading moment as it then was in whatever state you happened to be immersed. So, of course, someone that does not share your experiences will not know exactly what you are talking about, nor will they understand what you are saying from your particular point of view. None of us share each others’ unique perceptions and the thoughts and feelings that they spawn, and in this sense, at least to some degree, we are all isolated. And all the same. -
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Re: Free Will and Determinism walk into a bar...
Wed, March 12, 2008 - 3:39 PMi always thought it was impossible to fail at meditating. -
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Re: Free Will and Determinism walk into a bar...
Thu, March 13, 2008 - 12:26 AMBecause someone doesn’t excel at figure drawing doesn’t make them a failure at it. Talents with which people are born combined with circumstance ultimately equate to their level of proficiency at most anything. Why should meditation be any different? -
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Re: Free Will and Determinism walk into a bar...
Thu, March 13, 2008 - 12:41 AMwhat do you consider to be the goal of meditation? -
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Re: Free Will and Determinism walk into a bar...
Thu, March 13, 2008 - 1:33 AMNo goal really - sort of like taking a shower.
But don't tell anyone ;-) -
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Re: Free Will and Determinism walk into a bar...
Thu, March 13, 2008 - 2:29 AM
there is power in neutrality
it rises from the depth of receptivity
it is that massive large cobra which rises from stillness
it is so, that it can have no mother/female nor father/male
it seems like it was just born
but I assure you, father and mother came from this nuder-gender
do Nothing like taking a shower... there's much more to it than this... but I won't tell anyone! -
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Re: Free Will and Determinism walk into a bar...
Thu, March 13, 2008 - 2:33 AM
I'm shooting blanks... why is everyone dying?
sheeze... even I stopped shooting, they are still dying!
it's not even a gun, it was just my finger...
look (pointing to my head with it it) it's not even a gun
I'm dead
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Re: Free Will and Determinism walk into a bar...
Thu, March 13, 2008 - 10:48 AMi know someone who was recently telling me that they "could not meditate." and i answered, well, it's pretty much impossible to fail. he said, well, i can't get my thoughts to settle down, and i replied that that was normal and to keep doing it. it's part of the confusion that buddhism can create in people... you mean the goal is to have no goal? what i think happens gradually is a kind of parsing of awareness where the usual semantic inner dialogue of self-definition becomes just another phenomenon to witness. i am of course saying this to a room of people who already know this and much more! my latest gestalt is to view mental habits in terms of cognitive efficiency and bioenergetics, and i would surmise that meditation leads to greater efficiency of awareness. the multiple layers of perception, metaperception, metameta, metametameta... they come with a price. if you can sit somewhere and not keep piling on the narrative, it's more efficient. i try, for example, to go about my day without too much "i am such an idiot" or "i am so fucking cool" stuff because it's extra mental fat. kind of reminds me of drumming, where if you start to judge yourself too much, you mess up, and if you start to gloat to yourself.... you mess up. -
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Re: Free Will and Determinism walk into a bar...
Thu, March 13, 2008 - 9:28 PMInterestingly, higher states are so healing. They feel so good on all levels. Still, I noticed that I suffered through certain emotional states, schemas, patterns on occasion which left me puzzled. Often I wondered, shouldn't I not be able to be more mindful, more in control? But now, higher states of bliss do not guarantee emotional maturity... that is my experience. For instance, even here on tribe, so many advanced meditators on occasion snap on each other, or are impatient, which shows that they too react not from a mindful space but from a place of impatience... the place were we create reactive momenta and karma.
I noticed that I need mind training to make sure I go into a deeper level of understanding and freeing myself from entanglement of emotions, and social conditioning. Heading into bliss can become another way to reject our experience and ourselves. When people use higher states of bliss to compensate for "low self-esteem" social alienation, or emotional problems" the nature of spiritual practice is sidetracked. Instead of loosing the manipulative ego we strengthen it.See since everything is always perfect on a larger cosmic play, grieving the loss of somebody could be seen as a sign of spiritual weakness. We know that death, for instance, is happening on the transhuman level, on the relative level we still may experience profound regret and a "sense of loss" about our friends death. Our day to day experiences seem at odds with the highest experience. We perhaps try to conform everything into this single order of adjusting relative truth to the highest experience but we live on different levels of experience and we can't reduce everything to a single dimension. See, if we try to live in pure emptiness, or absolute being, we have a hard time fully engaging in our humanity since on the highest level our Self is not real but on a relative level it must be respected.
For instance, we can use anger and turn it into compassion. But a person, who never felt the right of being angry, may not know how to deal with anger and stuffs it down, appearing compassionate but sitting on a time bomb, ready to explode. We see these spiritual time bombs sometimes exploding here o tribe, after which a person usually unsubscribes :-))) - Mind training would help that person to accept the anger, acknowledge the anger and realtiy to it more fully. As a spiritual practitioner, we learn to be mindful and know that anger is empty, a wave in the ocean of consciousness, without solidity and meaning. This understanding is useful in the absolute sense but may do little to help to dissolve anger. Instead, perhaps we learn to pay more attention to our anger, in order to move beyond suppression, do discover strength and power in it and relate more assertively and creative in society. See, compassion cannot be totally true of we reject our anger and other negative emotions. People have to feel, accept, and come somehow to terms with their thoughts and feelings before arriving to genuine forgiveness and compassion.
There can be a huge gap between spiritual sophistication and the level of personal development. I have known people who have developed refined practices without developing rudimentary forms of "self-love and interpersonal sensitivity when dealing with people. Some pursue high spiritual ideals but show little kindness towards others and themselves and hide behind "detachment" and spiritual ideologies rather than to face their real issues thus come across as very unkind and unpleasant.
When we do mind training we try to find our underlying motivations such as holding a position of power, or knowledge or why we avoid facing our own wounding, or self critical voices which measures our own spiritual progress keeping score with every little failure to keep up with the teachings, thus judgment is increased and emotions are cut off. Many spiritual seekers, inspite of their high bliss states, are spiritually cold and that coldness is not created by the teaching but was already there before. When we pursue spirituality, even with the lovingness of bliss involved, the gab between how we are and how we think we are, if we are addicted to the bondage o perfectionism, is often really wide.
There are many books on mind training out there and even advanced practitioners need them on occasion to get through the tough part of live... even the highest forms of bliss can not bypass the development of individuation and personal maturity.
www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_s...760-0750854
www.amazon.com/Toward-Psy.../ref=sr_1_1
See, higher states of bliss are giving us the feeling that we are loved by the universe unconditionally and it's easier for many to go there and dwell in that special state, develop a sense of "specialness" as a result. I sure have been there and done it. I ws only 15 years old when I got initiated into tantric diks'a. I felt so special when the "bliss " came and felt like a living angel on earth. Then my dog got poisoned by a neighbor and I cried my heart out for month after that, wanted to move, hated the neighbor. I knew right then that I have long ways to go. Bliss and higher states are sure healing, beautiful and wonderful, no doubt... but we are still part of this world and the way we relate too ourselves and others.... sometimes from a place of a "wounded ego", which is afraid, feels loss, anxiety. To me "enlightenment" may not replace what can be termed "maturity and true humanity." It's here that older brothers sisters and our family and community can be of help.
By the way, Tara Bennet Goldman also wrote a nice book on "Emotional Alchemy." She is the wife if Daniel Goldman the author of 'Emotional Intelligence." These books are excellent for beginnes and advanced people to deal with trying ti cut through schemas and patterns which bring nothing but suffering and pain to themselves and others, in-spite of the sublime healing bliss they can feel.
Without this healing states of highest bliss, many would have fallen sick when facing grief, alienation, depression, abandonment feelings, feelings of not being enough, not being a good provider and giver, notions of perfectionism, etc.
See, states of bliss, are good but they are better when the whole person is heroically facing challenges, which we sometimes don't even know we have till karma bites us in the ASS (sorry for that speech but it can be so fitting( :-) - let's face All of who we are and why not? it's actually fun!
Sorry this was so long! Thank you for listening and if a spelling is in there, I have no time to fix it right now.
Love and light to all of you!
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Re: Free Will and Determinism walk into a bar...
Thu, March 13, 2008 - 10:35 PM
Dear Maya,
I'm just responding to a part of your post (I may respond to others parts later too).
Regarding the spiritual maturity and "high bliss states". I find the word "bliss" itself to be an indicator of immaturity. When bliss has any significance, even to be mentioned, it has not yet settled. At some point there was immense whirls of pain I called them my trauma processing days... and at some point there was this constant oceanic waves of orgasmic bliss moving through my body 24x7 for a few years.
Where I find myself in terms of emotions and triggers is that I have this constant state of wakeful-consciousness. Sleeping, awake, working/focused, relaxed, any state this part is always awake.
In terms of emotional maturity, there is a constant neutrality... it not detachment, nor is it sympathy/attachment... it is a state of compassion though there is a constant state of self-love (I love that you used this word). I'll make two examples:
1.) One of my two cats named Misha was found by my partner on a rail road behind our apartment complex. We do not know how, but the train had run over her neck, perfectly slicking her head from her body. I had her since she was 2 weeks old, she was now over 2 years old. I had her and her twin sister Sasha together. I went to bury her... at no point did I feel any sadness... rather I felt a great joy... this part of my that had so much love for her was now this empty space... and that empty space connected me even deeper with the truth that there is no death. This was in 2004.
2.) Yesterday my son who is 1 years old was crying through the whole night. My partner was laying next to him and very frustrated. I realized that whether my son just died in front of me, or was giggling in laughter my state would not change... it would remain the same stillness and presence... in this this neutral compassionate state... I laid next to him and placed my hand on his hand... in that moment in less than 2 seconds he took a long breath and fell asleep. Then I placed my hand on my partner, and she fell asleep. Then I walked back to my room and took my body to sleep state.
3.) In terms of folks on Tribe... the anger, people unsubscribed et all... there is just so much immaturity, such THICK EGO's lost in duality... and EVERYONE seems to think they are "enlightened", though not every individual consciousness has become aware that Essence is cognizant of itself and has built the "sacred space" for the Essence to emerge. I've tried and experimented and played with many different means to "thin" these EGO's... though it's no use most of the time... though on occasion I also get personal messages from people on different Tribe's telling me what I wrote really opened their hearts and they appreciated it.... though a lot of time I also realize this is because I just happened to have said something that justified to those people they are in fact also "enlightened"
I've gone through 3 years of intense psychological and meditation training with a Avadhut/Yogi (real one who spent many years living in south Indian jungles and Himalayas). Through that training I personally performed things which I had only read in books. Though all of that only got me to a certain stage which lead to Nirvikalpa Samadhi through classical means in 2004.
Later I began learning about the Awakening paths of Eckhart Tolle and Adya Shanti... they are both just the same. Not much needs to be said... they are very much about being Present, Here and Now. Very simple and very profound.
Following that I joined a closed Sufi path... one with an ancient lineage from Iran who do no advertising/marketing. A path with many secrets. I was initiated in that past for over two years, and during my training I was trained also intensely. After some point, I realized I must leave this path. I informed the Shaikh, and he said that if I leave this path he predicts I would become the master of another path. I have no such desires or pursuits.
I was trained in two ancient and classical paths. Along the way I also spent a year training with a Native American Shaman... out in the middle of no where! I was the only non-native american. I was trained, and a number of totems came through. Many many shamanic journeys, and meetings with different energetic beings that taught me many things.
Along the journey I met many other teachers and learned small things here and there, both in the physical and astral realms. After my Indian teacher went back to India, he continued teaching me through the Astral plane. One time, my cell phone began ringing while I was in the astral plane talking with him so I left the state. After the call, I picked up my phone and I called him in India... we continued the same astral plane conversation over the regular telephone. That is how clear these communications are.... absolutely CRYSTAL clear.
While doing all of this, I've been very much grounded in the ordinary life. I have two kids, a loving partner whom we are in an open-relationship, and I've been running my own business for last the 6 years which is doing quite well now. I've managed to keep all of these things balanced together which has been a very intense journey.
Presently I have a friend/teacher whom I would certainly give the title of being a Master of Masters when it comes to Energy Work and Awareness. He has helped me to dive much deeper in that I could have ever imagined. And it just keeps getting better.
I still do not feel I know much... I have much to learn... and I'm comfortable acting immature... I feel at ease to make a typo and spell something wrong and move on from it without having to go back and keep correcting it so I look "mature" in my posts... I'm just being real... we need not expect people who have woken up to always act "mature"
So I'm exploring things like "Stupidity" "Humor" and I found when Intelligence is born from Stupidity, it becomes "wit" So I'm just having fun and discovering things all the time as to how this new consciousness that has recently opened up plays with itself.
Things like "determinism" still don't make sense for example... even though in 2002 I saw every significant life transformation that would happen to me in 2004. Even though I've seen what will happen to me in 2008, in 2012, and most significantly in 2034... even though I continue to have dreams that show me what will happen the next week, next month... though I even write these dreams as emails and send them to close friends like my partner... then we watch them all come up true... I still do not see determinism to be true. Kind of strange don't you think? There's a lot more to this rabbit hole than meets the eye.
If in fact Charles' stance on determinism is out of true inner-knowledge, I am humbled by his realization. Of course there is also the strong possibility that he's just being very structured and unable to perceive beyond a certain matrix he has fixed within his mind. Though, it's not just Charles... I've read folks like Ramana Maharshi talk about determinism (in their own words of course). So there is enough credible folks having talked about this... so the question keeps burning... and I'm not satisfied with any "understandings". I must find it myself within.
Of course... by nature of duplicity, Essence will phase from wakefulness to sleep, back and forth it will go. The bridge in between is being constructed and improved.
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Re: Free Will and Determinism walk into a bar...
Fri, March 14, 2008 - 3:59 AMRamiel, in a very simplified way I see determinism as a concept by which everything is connected - the underlying fabric, the glue. On some level everything influences everything else. It is something that includes what we can see and beyond what we're capable of perceiving with our nervous systems. In a certain respect it might be seen as how one relates to the concept that we are a unique presence at a specific time at a specific location in the universe, affecting and being effected by on some level by everything else, variations in our presence shifting ever so slightly so that our frame of reference moves just enough to provide us with a different perspective. And this is why our perceptions and our states change. At those moments (and every moment for that matter) we are in a process of shifting and refocusing. It is not so much as being in an altered state, but a slight shift in space-time. Meditation is but one way to initiate such a shift.
We never come back to exactly the same place, traces remain to a lesser (short term memory) or greater degree (long term memory) but we are always arriving at a new place. No two moments are ever the same. Does this make any sense to you?
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