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A curious bit of information I've stumbled onto recently from the field of parapsychology:
"Sheep" or believers in ESP score significantly above chance in double-blind experiments. If you ask a skeptic, this is because they cheat, or because of poor controls, or because of some sort of experimenter bias. Perhaps.
But how do you explain the fact that "goats" or ESP "skeptics" consistently perform significantly *below* chance levels. That is to say, someone merely guessing blindly would be expected to do better than the goats. Are the goats cheating too?
This raises the possibility that the goats are willfully ignorant of certain mysterious abilities of their brains.
Dr. Mario Varvoglis, former President of the Parapsychological Association explains it thus:
"Skeptics are justified in stating that those who believe firmly in psi will tend to see its occurrence everywhere, even to the point of confusing their own interpretations with the actual events. On the other hand, disbelievers will also tend toward the complementary fallacy, always finding some so-called "rational" explanation for a psi experience, even when it happens to them. But the sheep-goat effect suggests that the differences run deeper than mere interpretation: one's attitudes toward psi affects the likelihood that such phenomena will occur in the first place. The more an individual harbors a reductionistic view of the world, the less chance such phenomena will emerge (let alone be witnessed by them); the more one is interested in interconnectedness, and open to psi experiences, the more likely the world will "respond" by creating such experiences."
This very short essay by Vargolis gives more context www.parapsych.org/sheep_goat_effect.htm
The universal source of all true knowledge also has an entry for "psi hit" containing more information about this odd phenomenon en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psi_hit
"Sheep" or believers in ESP score significantly above chance in double-blind experiments. If you ask a skeptic, this is because they cheat, or because of poor controls, or because of some sort of experimenter bias. Perhaps.
But how do you explain the fact that "goats" or ESP "skeptics" consistently perform significantly *below* chance levels. That is to say, someone merely guessing blindly would be expected to do better than the goats. Are the goats cheating too?
This raises the possibility that the goats are willfully ignorant of certain mysterious abilities of their brains.
Dr. Mario Varvoglis, former President of the Parapsychological Association explains it thus:
"Skeptics are justified in stating that those who believe firmly in psi will tend to see its occurrence everywhere, even to the point of confusing their own interpretations with the actual events. On the other hand, disbelievers will also tend toward the complementary fallacy, always finding some so-called "rational" explanation for a psi experience, even when it happens to them. But the sheep-goat effect suggests that the differences run deeper than mere interpretation: one's attitudes toward psi affects the likelihood that such phenomena will occur in the first place. The more an individual harbors a reductionistic view of the world, the less chance such phenomena will emerge (let alone be witnessed by them); the more one is interested in interconnectedness, and open to psi experiences, the more likely the world will "respond" by creating such experiences."
This very short essay by Vargolis gives more context www.parapsych.org/sheep_goat_effect.htm
The universal source of all true knowledge also has an entry for "psi hit" containing more information about this odd phenomenon en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psi_hit
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Re: The Sheep-Goat Effect
Thu, July 24, 2008 - 6:58 PM"what one believes to be true either is true or becomes true....."
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Re: The Sheep-Goat Effect
Thu, July 24, 2008 - 9:25 PMthis is not a question of belief vs. non-belief or sheep vs. goats. this is a matter of openness and humility and being non-dogmatic, no matter what your beliefs. whether you're Fox or Scully, you have to have a kind of suspension of surety in the face of experience. you have to be open to the raw data as much as possible before interjecting your own interpretation. otherwise, science itself would never advance. you see science and rationality are NOT anti parapsychology a priori at all. as a matter of fact, should evidence be clear, so-called parapsychological phenomena would become psychology, or should. that's good science.
i would suppose that someone completely closed to unusual phenomena might enter an experiment with an attitude that might skew their results. for example, if you believe it's impossible to be clairvoyant, you might rattle off pseudo-random answers, because they don't matter. you might say "star" over and over, or whatever, rather than actually trying. your disbelief would skew your choices. a believer might take the questions seriously and use a heuristic that would be more likely to be accurate to the sheer variety possible. in trying, they might introduce a wider range of responses.
that's my only guess. other than that, i'd have to examine the experimental methodology, sample size, and interpretive approaches involved in reaching the conclusions you present. -
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Re: The Sheep-Goat Effect
Thu, July 24, 2008 - 10:37 PM"there is no "try," only do."
Yoda
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Re: The Sheep-Goat Effect
Fri, July 25, 2008 - 10:41 AMTo my surprise, the Skeptic's dictionary offers an entry on this phenomenon but no explanation: www.skepdic.com/sheep-goat.html
"I can understand how believers might score above chance (by looking for cues, sensory leakage, counting cards, cheating, etc.). I can understand why researchers who believe in psi tend to get positive results, while non-believers tend to get negative results (experimenter effect, cheating, differences in competence and care in setting up a proper experiment, etc.) But I have no idea why non-believers, as a group, would score significantly below chance time and time again in ESP card experiments, a phenomenon referred to as psi-missing."
Incidentally, their page on 'psi-missing' totally bungles the concept:
"Psi-missing is an ad hoc hypothesis invented by parapsychologists to explain away failures to demonstrate ESP. The tests usually involve trying to use ESP to identify various targets, such as Zener cards, pictures, etc. which are hidden from direct view of the subject. The failure to do better than would be expected by chance is explained away as due to unconscious direction to avoid the target."
No. Psi-missing is not merely failing to perform above chance expectations - it refers to a tendency to perform significantly *below* chance in a way that defies easy explanation. -
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Re: The Sheep-Goat Effect
Fri, July 25, 2008 - 10:59 AM"Psi-missing is an ad hoc hypothesis invented by parapsychologists to explain away failures to demonstrate ESP."
It's probably not even correct to call 'psi-missing' a hypothesis at all. It's an observed (and surprising) trend in the data that we need hypotheses to explain.
Varvoglis hypothesizes that there's some sort of feedback loop between believing in psi and having psychic experiences. Robert Anton Wilson suggests it might be some kind of unconscious 'decision' to turn on or off certain synapses. Blue-j thinks maybe the goats just aren't making a "good-faith" effort to make reasonable guesses in the experiments.
I like Blue-j's hypothesis because presumably if we could look closely at the data, we could get a feeling for how plausible it was. The other 2 I have no idea how to test. -
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Re: The Sheep-Goat Effect
Fri, July 25, 2008 - 9:59 PMI do not believe that there is any sheep-goat effect. It is only another claim and is not supported by any evidence outside of the psychic community. I know that people can and will believe whatever they want. -
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Re: The Sheep-Goat Effect
Fri, July 25, 2008 - 11:04 PMbut i WANT to believe in the sheep-goat effect!!!
speaking of which, the new x-files flick is getting crapped on by the critics, who claim to feel crapped on themselves. too bad, if true. the first one was pretty damn fun. -
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Re: The Sheep-Goat Effect
Sat, July 26, 2008 - 1:55 AMThis 'want to believe' thing is pretty deeply entrenched in us. Interesting, what is it in us that will literally blind us into wanting to believe that there must be some thing, some power beyond our naturally endowed awareness. Beats me.
New X-Files - B-, though Scully's still lookin' pretty damn good, getting better with age. -
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Re: The Sheep-Goat Effect
Sat, July 26, 2008 - 2:52 AMbelief is ordinarily about taking other people at their word, and therefore should be seen primarily as a mechanism of social coordination.
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Re: The Sheep-Goat Effect
Sat, July 26, 2008 - 7:13 AM
I think that there is an innate knowing we have of what our capacity as human beings can be. We are the only animal on the earth who can think and build/manifest so much so that we can make serious changes to the point of even destroying our planet.
Also, I think there is a deep psychological cry as today's common global social systems are still not very welcoming of many aspects that which is out of the common ordinary. For example, I've been practicing meditation and energy work for some years. I have no doubts that it works, and what I do energetically and remotely will have positive or negative effects on the people I work on.
It seems to me that unless something is done on the very basic physical level, the common mind will reject it, and even then, not so easy. For this reason I took up learning spoon bending from an energy worker. I was surprised that after the 12th spoon and fork bend that I was finally just beginning to not have doubts about this ability.
Charles on one end you have the "want to believe" thing pretty entrenched, on the other end, I'd say we have this "doubt" thing pretty entrenched... the same sheep/goat thing isn't it?
I think that we all know there is much more to being a human being... few of us dare to really venture out to find out.... and even when we do, it's still within confines of our mind, society... I think this is because we have an underlying 'need' of being interconnected with each other, and if that means sacrificing many of our other aspects and be alone, most of us would rather be in conformance with the common to a degree that we can still have our social circles.
is this sheep/goat thing no more than just right and left brained people?
since I've noticed, when I'm doing energy work, and it's working, I'm not asking much questions, just doing, just happening
and, when I'm asking questions, doubting, thinking, being scientific about it... the energy work doesn't work...
when someone asks me to do it, for the sake of them seeing it... it's a very left brain thing, and it's as if there is not even an interest to do it from me... and other times, at a spur of the moment, it just happens without much reasoning behind it
it's almost like the natural laws of the out-of-ordinary have built-in functionality that when the left brain is active, disappear... since otherwise the scientific mind may just end up destroying the garden
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Re: The Sheep-Goat Effect
Sat, July 26, 2008 - 1:48 PM"on one end you have the "want to believe" thing pretty entrenched, on the other end, I'd say we have this "doubt" thing pretty entrenched... the same sheep/goat thing isn't it? "
i'm building a related hypothesis about the genetical basis of political leanings, which now has a fair amount of support. here it goes: i think liberals, conservatives, and sheep and goats, co-evolved in a frequency dependent manner under kin and group selectionist pressures. in other words, they need each other to benefit kin or group survival, and teeter-totter back and forth. too many conservatives, not enough change. too many liberals, not enough tradition and relying on the known and people's capacities for growth. too many sheep, too many goats. same shit.
i invite deep critical reflection on this hypothesis! don't just believe me!! ; )
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Re: The Sheep-Goat Effect
Sat, July 26, 2008 - 2:52 PMIt would make sense that the combination of genetic propensity and experience (and the interpretation of such) produce great variation - almost a bell-shaped curve, I'd venture to say. Now whether a normal distribution curve has anything to do with what naturally evolves over time due to naturally/randomly occurring environmental/genetic changes, or if it has something to do with your hypothesis (the survival benefit of there being an equal number of sheep and goats) - hmmm? - good question - but there's a sheepish image beginning to materialize in my visual field fed by vaporous filaments from afar, It's becoming clearer now. Yes, there it is - a chicken and an egg ;-)
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Re: The Sheep-Goat Effect
Sat, July 26, 2008 - 2:32 PM"most of us would rather be in conformance with the common to a degree that we can still have our social circles. "
we are deeply social animals, bordering on ant-like behavior. we are among the more colony-like creatures outside of insects around. it's easy to take the non-conformist punk attitude that one is beyond group identification, but that quickly smells like the bullshit it is. that's not to say some aren't more dangerously conformist than others! but we NEED each other, with the exception of some rare hermits that often find a way to succeed socially anyway.
"when I'm asking questions, doubting, thinking, being scientific about it... the energy work doesn't work...
when someone asks me to do it, for the sake of them seeing it... it's a very left brain thing, and it's as if there is not even an interest to do it from me... and other times, at a spur of the moment, it just happens without much reasoning behind it "
this is not because the doubt is harmful in and of itself, or that skepticism is bad. it is related to the anatomy of your brain. the more you bring into conscious awareness, the more you slow things down electrochemically. consciousness comes at a very high price, and most decisions are best made via unconscious inference. it's like thinking clinically about sex or drumming... it fucks things up. you have to achieve a balance of control and abandon that gets you where you want.
i recommend you utilize more skeptical, scientific reflections on experiences AFTER the fact. that way you're not interfering with the moment, but you might take yourself and others further along to understanding what's going on. you are a pioneer, so see what kind of map you can bring back to the tribe. it is often in the act of explanation where one goes wrong, even if one assumes one is simply reporting what occurred without attachment to rationality.
you're right, there is some hemisphere specific explanations here. when you start to explain things, you more often invoke the left hemisphere's language centers. be friends with your left hemisphere. you need it. without it you'd be lost. romanticizations of the right hemisphere like jill bolte taylor's stroke acid trip tell only... half the story.
i see now you have a political interpretation of left/right hemispheric activities, but i think you'll find that even though the left hemisphere gets to make up the stories, the right is deeply implicated in many activities that are causing harm to our species. your energy focus may have calcified into ideology itself as you try to destabilize people's sense of things to be more open. energetic approaches may their own doctrine, even if it is silent.
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Re: The Sheep-Goat Effect
Sat, July 26, 2008 - 4:02 PMI'd say that the playground that we run around in is clearly defined. And, as I've mentioned elsewhere, I see each of us hovering around a distinctive template that is unique for each of us. Typically, the overlap of our individual templates will define our beliefs and social circles. Of course, there's a certain degree of freedom that allows us wiggle-room, and at times this enables us to enter territory we wouldn't otherwise consider. It appears to me that some people have more wiggle-room than others, and for them it may be easier to extend the boundaries of their playing fields. Sheep and goats appear to typically group with individuals of similar templates, yet the variations are immense, virtually infinite - and I'm unclear as to the underlying mechanism(s) that enhance one's degree of freedom - though I seem to have various ideas about this.
As far as spoon bending goes - you'd have to call me a goat. You or anyone else can meet me for dinner. I'll bring a spoon and put it on the table. If you (without touching it) can bend or levitate the spoon, or cause it to change color or vaporize or something - then dinner is on me at the restaurant of your choice. -
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Re: The Sheep-Goat Effect
Sat, July 26, 2008 - 4:07 PM"You or anyone else can meet me for dinner. I'll bring a spoon and put it on the table. If you (without touching it) can bend or levitate the spoon, or cause it to change color or vaporize or something - then dinner is on me at the restaurant of your choice."
um, how about a cool million from james randi?
www.randi.org/joom/content/view/38/31/ -
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Re: The Sheep-Goat Effect
Sat, July 26, 2008 - 4:53 PM
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Re: The Sheep-Goat Effect
Sat, July 26, 2008 - 4:26 PMi think an important lesson is to find the magic in the mundane. perhaps magicians are perfect vehicles for crossing that bridge! -
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Re: The Sheep-Goat Effect
Sat, July 26, 2008 - 5:06 PMI'm certainly with you on that.
I get the sense at times that the whole thing is an all-encompassing magic show with each of us sitting in our own 'best-seat-in-the-house'. -
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Re: The Sheep-Goat Effect
Sun, July 27, 2008 - 6:45 PMCharles, for some reason your comment makes me think of 'City of Lost Children.' -
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Re: The Sheep-Goat Effect
Mon, July 28, 2008 - 12:14 AMI didn't see the movie, but I just watched the trailer...
www.imdb.com/title/tt011...vi4236902681
I think I get a sense of what you are referring to.
Something about the entire matrix being spun on the fly, and our meager vantage point capable of vanishing instantly without a wave of the wand or even so much as a puff of smoke. So extremely fine is that delicate thread that animates us. -
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Re: The Sheep-Goat Effect
Mon, July 28, 2008 - 7:44 AMMovies can be fun to watch but:: I try not to step out in front of moving cars or off the edge of high places. I do not have to test each and every step on the side walk to see if it is really there. It makes my life eaiser to have a predictable reallity. That is just me.
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Re: The Sheep-Goat Effect
Mon, July 28, 2008 - 9:32 AMcool. film. ron perlman, pre-hellboy. he's always good. -
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Re: The Sheep-Goat Effect
Mon, July 28, 2008 - 12:56 PMit is a good movie, though forlorn.. it's the same directors that made "delicatessen" which is not as good. they also went on to make a horrible 4th movie in the Alien series!!!
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Re: The Sheep-Goat Effect
Mon, August 4, 2008 - 7:35 PM"I think there is a deep psychological cry as today's common global social systems are still not very welcoming of many aspects that which is out of the common ordinary"
indeed, a deep psychological cry. and sometimes this cry hides *under* a dissociated psychicism.
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Re: The Sheep-Goat Effect
Tue, July 29, 2008 - 11:06 AMCurry, the sheep-goat effect is not based on anecdotes from the psychic community - it is an unforeseen pattern in the data across many carefully controlled studies in parapsychology.
Certainly it is true that people can and will believe whatever they want, but it's all too easy to forget that this applies not only to the sheep, but also to the goats! Therein lies the trouble with popular skepticism: it's very easy to be skeptical of the beliefs of others, but quite difficult to be skeptical of our own beliefs. Even if the sheep-goat effect turns out to be an illusion, confirmation bias is very real, and it applies just as readily to skeptics as it does to anyone else. -
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Re: The Sheep-Goat Effect
Tue, July 29, 2008 - 11:14 AM"confirmation bias is very real, and it applies just as readily to skeptics as it does to anyone else"
well said brother, well said. who knows, the brain is comprised of electrochemical processes and may perhaps involve a field of sorts (eg libet's conscious mental field theory). this field may have subtle properties to be discovered still. my mind is open, but not empty.
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Re: The Sheep-Goat Effect
Tue, July 29, 2008 - 8:03 PMI stand by what I said about there being no evidence for the sheep-goat effect.
There are no real "carefully controlled studies" that would be accepted outside of the psychic or parapsychology community that show any psychic or sheep-goat effect. Maybe some day there will be. I could change my mind with some real evidence. Bring your so called "carefully controlled studies" out to the science community in general. When they listen, I will. -
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Re: The Sheep-Goat Effect
Tue, July 29, 2008 - 9:00 PM"I stand by what I said about there being no evidence for the sheep-goat effect. "
"Bring your so called "carefully controlled studies" out to the science community"
"When they listen, I will."
wait, who are the sheep again? this is transparently dismissive. you first say, there is no evidence, than say, let's see the evidence, then say, if other people accept it, you will. this attitude is ironically anti-scientific. parapsychology IS the scientific study of paranormal claims, and almost entirely provides evidence *against* such claims! it's a legitimate scientific field, with peer-reviewed journals, graduate degrees from well-regarded universities, and a long standing history of research. it is not equivalent to "the psychic community."
why don't you look at the studies yourself? the sheep-goat effect is not evidence of paranormal activity. it is very, very likely to be explicable via exposing bias and cognitive errors, but good science demands rigorous examination.
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Re: The Sheep-Goat Effect
Tue, July 29, 2008 - 11:45 PM"There are no real "carefully controlled studies" that would be accepted outside of the psychic or parapsychology community"
While I can't fully endorse this statement because I'm familiar with only a smattering of the research, I can say through experience that an element of truth certainly rings through.
In the early '70s I was invited into a study group that was run by Stanley Krippner, who at the time was one of the world's leading parapsychologists. I tended to be a little more sheepish then than I am currently. I was excited and there was a part of me that really looked forward to familiarizing myself with new and exciting information. Anyway, this group was composed of many of Stanley's closest associates. We met weekly, went over some of the latest studies, and discussed them. At first I was somewhat mesmerized by the material, but after the initial excitement of the affair began to fade, I began to see many inconsistencies, and on several occasions when I did ask questions, because the nature of my queries did not unquestionably support the proposed results of some of the findings - well, I was made to feel that under the circumstances that this was not the right thing to do.
It became apparent to me that what existed there was a mutually supported belief system, and this system by its very nature seemed to exclude, to intentional fail to evaluate reasons for phenomena that didn't correlate with the group's preexisting belief structure. The longer I hung with the group, the more this tendency became evident and after some time I stopped going to the meetings.
I realize that my situation was isolated, yet from what I saw there and other treatments of parapsychological phenomena I became familiar with, that much of what is called parapsychology is mass delusion - yet, of course, if I saw someone bend a spoon in front of my eyes I'd likely change my overall perspective in a heartbeat. To be honest, I'd like nothing better to be proved wrong about this. There's still this part of me that wants to see it happen - other than at the movies. -
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Re: The Sheep-Goat Effect
Wed, July 30, 2008 - 12:41 AMyour single anecdote and admitted lack of unfamiliarity with research coupled with your surety that no studies are carefully controlled is itself not very carefully controlled! what's with all the multiple standards among scientists here? you think no actual scientists have ever studied alleged paranormal phenomena?? really? susan blackmore, after getting her PhD in Parapsychology, spent most of her adult life studying topic after topic, life after death, out-of-body experiences, lucid dreams, alien abduction, among other things, and her research was well-performed and interesting, and taught us a lot about the brain as well.
www.susanblackmore.co.uk/research.htm
in a collection of a bunch of paranormal researchers, she finally threw in the towel and moved on:
www.susanblackmore.co.uk/Chapt...tz.htm
i'm sure there are scores more. wow, we're seeing some sheep/goat hybrids here, i think!
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Re: The Sheep-Goat Effect
Thu, July 31, 2008 - 12:34 AMI'd say I had a very good perspective on the research and literature up to a point in my life, and then I began to lose interest because I felt that continued efforts in the study of parapsychological research were a waste of time. For me there's nothing there other than mutually supported delusion. From time to time my interest for one reason or another will be peaked and I'll wander down a path for a time, telling myself I may have missed something but that's the exception for me now rather than the rule. And, if anything, such behavior ultimately ends up reinforcing the realization that such paranormal phenomena do not and will not ever exist, except in science fiction and fantasy and the land of wishful thinking.
Though, admittedly for me, there' s nothing better than a good science fiction yarn. -
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Re: The Sheep-Goat Effect
Thu, July 31, 2008 - 12:46 AMi don't hold that against you, i was just sensitive about the statement that no good science has been done in parapsychology.
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Re: The Sheep-Goat Effect
Wed, July 30, 2008 - 11:28 AMCurry, the sheep-goat effect is well established across scores of studies - it is just not explained (well, there are proposed explanations but none are really established). To dismiss all this peer-reviewed research simply because it comes from the field of parapsychology strikes me as rather dogmatic - where else would it come from, meteorology?
Remember, I'm not asking you to buy into some particular interpretation of the data - I'm only asking you to acknowledge that there is something there to be explained. If it's a matter of needing to see a peer-reviewed article on it, that's cool and I will dig up a link. Do you need 5? 10? It sounds like no amount of evidence will convince you until the scientific community at large accepts it, but this is an odd criterion. What do the opinions of geologists and astronomers have to contribute to this question? We don't wait for them to sign off on new developments in genetics. So I think there are some double-standards at play here.
Maybe you think there is a conspiracy in the field of parapsychology to fudge the data - that would be one explanation of the sheep-goat effect. Maybe there is. But consider how readily 'skeptics' mock creationists who allege that a similar conspiracy operates in the field of biology.
I agree with Charles that
<"It became apparent to me that what existed there was a mutually supported belief system, and this system by its very nature seemed to exclude, to intentional fail to evaluate reasons for phenomena that didn't correlate with the group's preexisting belief structure.>
But I would add that this doesn't only apply to the sheep - the goats do it too. For example, CSI/CSICOP will not let you serve on their advisory board if you believe in any sort of psychic phenomenon. Co-founder Marcello Truzzi left the organization for this reason. -
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Re: The Sheep-Goat Effect
Thu, July 31, 2008 - 8:50 AM".....- I'm only asking you to acknowledge that there is something there to be explained. If it's a matter of needing to see a peer-reviewed article on it, that's cool and I will dig up a link. Do you need 5? 10? It sounds like no amount of evidence will convince you until the scientific community at large accepts it, but this is an odd criterion. ....."
Yes I need the scientific community at large to accept it. It is what is required for all the other fields of science. I do not find that odd.
I think there are a lot of things that need to be explained and a lot that we do not know yet.
That does not require me to agree there is a sheep-goat effect. Just like any other field of science, I require some evidence that is acceptable to the scientific community at large. Parapsycology should not be any different than any other field of science. -
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Re: The Sheep-Goat Effect
Thu, July 31, 2008 - 8:58 AMa sheep in goat's clothing?
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Re: The Sheep-Goat Effect
Thu, July 31, 2008 - 10:14 AM<"Yes I need the scientific community at large to accept it. It is what is required for all the other fields of science.">
As I see it, in most fields of science, if a conclusion is acceptable to practitioners in their own domain, it becomes acceptable to the scientific community at large. When we discover that there is water on Mars, we don't wait around and ask sociologists, botanists, or heaven forbid, parapsychologists what they think of the matter - we just accept that a new discovery has been made. Parapsychology may be the only field where nearly everybody working in it can agree on a certain conclusion, and other fields of science simply thumb their noses. Often they don't even feel they have to give a reason for rejecting a conclusion from parapsychology - the fact that the study involved a hypothesis they don't agree with is enough.
When a sheep performs above chance in an experiment, the rebuttals are plenty forthcoming; the sheep cheated, there was experimenter bias, the experiment wasn't controlled well enough... But when a bunch of goats somehow perform significantly below chance, the other goats become confused, searching for a rebuttal they come up empty handed, and can only say "I just don't believe it." -
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Re: The Sheep-Goat Effect
Thu, July 31, 2008 - 10:44 PMwww.jackhouck.com/cm.shtml
Conceptual Model
"With the conceptual model of a brain transmitting and receiving information that is stored all around us, a question naturally arises as to where this information is stored. It is not known. However, it is interesting to note that our human senses only perceive, for example, a very small portion of the electromagnetic spectrum. This is not to suggest that the information storage system is necessarily in the known electromagnetic spectrum. To the author's knowledge, no instruments other than the brain have been able to measure or directly contact this external information storage system. There are instruments that seem to respond to human will or register when a paranormal event occurs, but it is thought this is due to PK." - Jack Houck
the history of persecution is only the tip of the iceberg, stopping someone to present their self for study. unless ones loses all sense of self-preservation it's wise to disguise, keep it in the family and don't freak people out.
there is of course a lot of potential for abuse as well.
some go underground, some hide in plain sight.
as the saying goes some are born to it, others have it thrust upon them. -
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Re: The Sheep-Goat Effect
Sun, August 3, 2008 - 6:39 PMthis takes computational metaphors too far. "information" is not equivalent in physics and neuroscience to the term "information" as its used in human culture. in the former, a representational medium is not required; you simply have patterns which metaphorically "tell" other patterns something via their patterning. but they do not use signs, and they do not require "external storage." metaphors often take on reflections of the most prominent technologies of an era, and wow, suddenly EVERYTHING really is literally a computer, and everywhere we are swarmed by information. coweenkeedink?
this "conceptual model" is oddly similar to the fictional physics of greg bear's "moving mars"!
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Re: The Sheep-Goat Effect
Sun, August 3, 2008 - 9:11 AMThe discovery of water on Mars has been a long slow process with many fields of science involved. There are many scientists, engineers, geologists, etc. who worked on this. A lot of evidence has been collected in support of there being water on Mars. It is getting to look like there is water on Mars. There is a scientific community involved.
The science of the evidence is open to review and study. You do not have to believe that there is water before you can see any evidence.
Even something like string theory, is only a theory with no evidence. The people who work on string theory do not claim it to be a fact or say there is any evidence when there is none.
They do not say you have to believe in it before you can see any evidence.
I disagree with a lot of what you said in your post (starting with "in most fields of science") but see no reason to respond to it. Voodoo, You and I disagree and will not change each other's minds.
I still say there is no accepted evidence for any sheep-goat effect.
It should be called a theory and not presented as a fact.
Parapsychology needs to earn respect from other fields of science.
The reason for rejecting the conclusions from parapsycology studies has been stated over and over again. The only studies in parapsycology that show any results have not been done in a manner that is acceptable to the other fields of science. You can not use these flawed studies as evidence to prove anything. -
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Re: The Sheep-Goat Effect
Sun, August 3, 2008 - 2:53 PM<"Voodoo, You and I disagree and will not change each other's minds.">
I'm totally willing to listen if you have some piece of information debunking the sheep-goat effect, and particularly explaining why the goats perform significantly below chance. I haven't been able to find any information debunking it - notice that one of the first things I did was check what the Skeptic's Dictionary had to say (to my surprise, not much!).
Many people consider a finding automatically debunked simply because it comes from the field of parapsychology. To a certain extent this is understandable - there has been a lot of fraud and sloppy research.
On the other hand, this quickly becomes a self-verifying belief system: Skeptics will only accept psychic phenomena if there is scientific evidence, but any purported scientific evidence is rejected automatically because it comes from parapsychology.
In the end, I can't force anyone to be interested in the things I find interesting, I can only promise that it's not illegal, immoral, or fattening.
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Re: The Sheep-Goat Effect
Sun, August 3, 2008 - 6:45 PM"The only studies in parapsycology that show any results have not been done in a manner that is acceptable to the other fields of science. You can not use these flawed studies as evidence to prove anything. "
i haven't seen a scintilla of evidence that you have any familiarity with the research at all in any way whatsoever, yet you are keen to dismiss it and still call yourself pro-science. all i hear is your telling everyone it's flawed over and over. flawed how? what research? you don't even bother looking at it, do you?
parapsychology IS an accepted science among many, it just has come up with non-magical and physicalist explanations or inconclusive results, which is what you and i would expect. but you can't just rule out an entire field of inquiry! we've actually learned some very interesting things about the brain, for example, in explaining near death experiences, out of body experiences, lucid dreaming, dowsing, ouiji boards, and the like. vital stuff. -
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Re: The Sheep-Goat Effect
Mon, August 4, 2008 - 7:22 PMVoodoo has made the claim of a sheep-goat effect. It is up to him to back it up with evidence that has been reviewed and accepted by the scientific community. In all of this posting has any evidence like this been presented\; no. With out evidence, I have a reasonable right to say that I do not believe the claim of any sheep-goat effect. Yes I would call that pro-science. I do not need to dis-prove claims. The person making the claim needs to back it up. When I said i needed evidence accepted by the scientific community, none was presented.
I am not trying to dismiss the field of parapsycology, only this claim of a sheep-goat effect like it was a fact. -
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Re: The Sheep-Goat Effect
Mon, August 4, 2008 - 7:33 PMfair enough. voodoo... where's the goods? -
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Re: The Sheep-Goat Effect
Mon, August 4, 2008 - 10:23 PMSearching for original source articles online regarding the sheep-goat effect has been frustrating. Many of the articles are older, and therefore not published on the internet. The original work goes back to Gertrude Schmeidler, and you can find one of her peer-reviewed articles here: psycnet.apa.org/index.cfm if you feel like paying $12. I don't, so the search continues.
This google book result books.google.com/books speaks of experiments on the sheep-goat effect by various researchers, though all the ones I followed led to dead ends in cyberspace. Still, if it doesn't make you curious, check your pulse. One reference kind of followed through - this article might help you if you happen to parle francias: cabinet.auriol.free.fr/Docume...-fr.htm
Here's a peer reviewed article on the sheep goat effect from 1993 www3.hi.is/~erlendur/en...SP%20Perf.pdf Just found it, haven't read it yet.
Here's another from 2004 findarticles.com/p/article..._n13699199 Again, haven't read it yet.
I will read those 2 soon. Having bothered to dig these links up, I hope somebody finds them useful.
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Re: The Sheep-Goat Effect
Fri, August 1, 2008 - 8:08 AMI am late to this and have not read any of the thread yet but the first thing that comes to mind when I read the topic was the I Ching line about the goat head-butting the hedge and getting its horns stuck while the sheep looked on and LaAAAahhhhhfffeeedd...!!!
