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I would guess most if not all of us rally round our cherished concept of freedom. On the chance that determinism is how it is, that every thought we have, every move me make, even every sound we utter is predetermined within this deterministic universe - well, how does this fit in with your concept of freedom - in that you probably sense that at least to some degree you can do what you want, call your own shots, make your own bed? Could it be that freedom is a grand illusion, and on the outside chance that it is - what possible purpose would it serve? Why?
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Re: Is it Freedom or Free Dumb?
Tue, May 27, 2008 - 9:20 PMfreedom or free dumb?
dependent related links;
one precludes other -
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Re: Is it Freedom or Free Dumb?
Tue, May 27, 2008 - 10:29 PMHey Michael, maybe you could expound upon that a little. I'd like to hear what you have to say. -
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Re: Is it Freedom or Free Dumb?
Sat, May 31, 2008 - 12:38 PMWe choose to be free and we are also free to remain ignorant - either way we cannot escape the dependent related nature of all phenomena - so, we are choosing to either see things as they really are, or remain confused by our grasping at an inherently existent self that we perceive as separate from all other things and phenomena. We can't have both - they are mutually exclusive - so we must choose. -
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Re: Is it Freedom or Free Dumb?
Sat, May 31, 2008 - 1:18 PM>we are choosing to either see things as they really are<
i'm not sure we're even capable of seeing "things as they really are."
how would we know? we've only got our perceptual filters to go on. -
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Re: Is it Freedom or Free Dumb?
Sat, May 31, 2008 - 1:46 PM"things as they really are" are really just things as we imagine they really are... -
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Re: Is it Freedom or Free Dumb?
Sat, May 31, 2008 - 3:07 PM"...just things as we imagine they really are..."
Yeah, and it seems that the 'we' is the slippery slope, like it's just all over the place for each of us individually and for each other. It's almost as though it's a minor miracle that we're as a group even able to hold down a semi-intelligent conversation. -
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Re: Is it Freedom or Free Dumb?
Sat, May 31, 2008 - 3:11 PMDon't pat yourself on the back too hard -- you might break your arm. A conversation is intelligible only to the extent you recognize yourself in what is said -- on both sides. -
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Re: Is it Freedom or Free Dumb?
Sat, May 31, 2008 - 3:39 PMI've broken both arms several times - though having nothing to do with patting myself on the back.
Maybe it's the opposite of recognizing one's self. Maybe it's when that entity we reference as being ourself begins to fade, when its edges soften and that process recedes invisibly into the background - maybe that's when things begin to click? -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Is it Freedom or Free Dumb?
Sat, May 31, 2008 - 3:49 PMMeaning is memory is self.
Don't leave home without it. -
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Re: Is it Freedom or Free Dumb?
Sat, May 31, 2008 - 4:14 PMCongratulations! It sounds like you're well on your way to being awarded your 'Determinist Badge' ;-)
Our memories are a slippery lot that change dramatically over time. Our remembrances of them can sway wildly from moment to moment as can our interpretations. We're not who we thought we were. You're defining Mr. Self as a first class shape shifter - which sounds about right to me. Though I'd venture to say that whoever it is that's leaving home is never ever the same - not even close - even for government work. -
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Re: Is it Freedom or Free Dumb?
Sat, May 31, 2008 - 4:48 PMCongratulations! It sounds like you're well on your way to being awarded your 'Buddhist Badge' ;-)
This is the meaning of the often misunderstood doctrine of "anatman" or "no-self" -- not that there is literally no self, but that there is no abiding or permanent self, apart from the constantly flowing stream of experience... The self is simply an eddy in that stream... an eddy imbued with the experience of volition.
"Volition is action (karma), thus I say, o monks; for as soon as volition arises, one does the action, be it by body, speech or mind."
-- Buddha
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Re: Is it Freedom or Free Dumb?
Sun, June 1, 2008 - 8:23 PM"i'm not sure we're even capable of seeing "things as they really are."
how would we know? we've only got our perceptual filters to go on"
evolutionary epistemology would predict that if our perceptual filters resulted in a significant difference between what is happening outside of us and how we perceive things to be, we would fail to survive and reproduce, so bad maps would get ripped up quickly. that doesn't mean the map is the territory, but it's worth considering.
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Re: Is it Freedom or Free Dumb?
Sat, May 31, 2008 - 2:58 PM"...so we must choose."
Thanks for breaking that down. I don't hold the concept of 'choice' in the same way you do, and I'd say that the belief in the ability to choose is a primary cause of what we call suffering. But, I guess, a belief such as this is just how I'm wired - currently.
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Re: Is it Freedom or Free Dumb?
Thu, May 29, 2008 - 12:30 PMpreclude or include?
free to hold the illusion
that freedom is dumb
(or not, as the good Dr would say)
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Re: Is it Freedom or Free Dumb?
Wed, May 28, 2008 - 9:07 AMreading this Q, it occurs to me that maybe it's our concept of freedom that is deficient. especially as, no matter what we do or accomplish, in the end it's so much dust. but meanwhile....
i think where i'm getting to is that the question itself is a tail-chaser. what difference does it make if we aren't actually free? we seem to be, and to act as if we're not is nihilistic, and sortof shuts down the whole game. even if the whole perceived universe is illusionary, it's a grand illusion, and worth playing out. (impossible not to, now that i think about it!)
LOTR: what will you do with the time that is given you? what is the point of this debate? (except we know you're predetermined to ask it, charles.) :-) -
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Re: Is it Freedom or Free Dumb?
Wed, May 28, 2008 - 12:56 PM"sortof shuts down the whole game. even if the whole perceived universe is illusionary, it's a grand illusion, and worth playing out. (impossible not to, now that i think about it!)"
Think you're on the money here, though 'worth playing out' still seems to contain the slightest hint of control in that 'we' are able to play it out, or are somehow making that decision.
If anything, it's an interesting thought experiment - and I think my original question question was related to one of blue-j's comments that *seemed* to me to indicate that freedom could exist within a deterministic framework. I can't seem to be able to simultaneously hold both of the concepts - I'll think some more on it - or better said, "I'll let myself be thought ;-)
Assuming for the purpose of this discussion that it can not - my question seemed to evolve into one of, "Why would we find ourselves to have evolved with the concept even believing that we are free or could be free to do what we want"? -
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Re: Is it Freedom or Free Dumb?
Wed, May 28, 2008 - 1:01 PMIs it the merit of such an idea embodied exclusively in its survival benefit? -
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Re: Is it Freedom or Free Dumb?
Wed, May 28, 2008 - 7:34 PM>Is it the merit of such an idea embodied exclusively in its survival benefit?<<.
i don't think so.
survival-benefit certainly effects many many things, but i don't think it's running the entire game. dunno why i think that. :-P -
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Re: Is it Freedom or Free Dumb?
Thu, May 29, 2008 - 12:00 AMWhat other things do you think are important? -
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Re: Is it Freedom or Free Dumb?
Thu, May 29, 2008 - 8:52 AMwell, gee....
sunlight. air. birdsong. flowers.
:-)
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Re: Is it Freedom or Free Dumb?
Thu, May 29, 2008 - 3:19 PMIs the merit of a flower embodied exclusively in its survival benefit?
Certainly, a flower can be viewed in terms of the survival benefits it affords its genetic lineage. I feel free to value flowers that way ;-) but I don't hold that their merits are *exclusively* embodied in that benefit. The merit of an entire plant, hell - even an entire genetic lineage, could also be seen as embodied in the survival benefit for the flower, if you really liked the flower and didn't care much for the plant it was a part of. Within an operational system, how does one go about nominating which parts exist for the benefit of which others?
The merit of an idea such as freedom? I'm sure it could be said to afford survival benefit to *something*, even if its just "discussion about the reality of the concept of freedom". Taking a stab at something broader and still plausible... I'd offer: to the human race, as part of a cluster of ideas that foster diversification of survival strategies. -
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Re: Is it Freedom or Free Dumb?
Sat, May 31, 2008 - 3:13 PM"... human race, as part of a cluster of ideas that foster diversification of survival strategies." Eileen, I sorta missed this when I quickly glazed over it the first time. Interesting thought - well worth considering.
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Re: Is it Freedom or Free Dumb?
Wed, May 28, 2008 - 4:40 PMOr perhaps it would be more accurate to say that determinism might exist within a framework of freedom...
And if so, could it be that determinism is a grand illusion, just a conceptual model constructed in an attempt to explain the unexplainable? -- to slice and dice the reality of experience with mathematics and measurement, to predict and control... What other possible purpose would it serve?
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Re: Is it Freedom or Free Dumb?
Wed, May 28, 2008 - 5:04 PMClose, but no cigar ;-)
Course we're talking about dreams within dreams - but is there any other way to screw in a light bulb?
Not so much the reality of experience, but is there really a reality? I'm sorta getting at, "Are things real"? and I'm not looking at it from a mathematical point of view. There seems to be an impetus for us to want to see things as real, and there also seems to be an impetus from within this constructed reality to point to some place from where we're no longer subject to the influences of this constructed reality - and we call this freedom, and hold this construct in rather high esteem.
So, maybe just for the moment, regardless of the point of view you hold, just for the purpose of this short discussion - say that determinism is king, yet for whatever reason - people reject this in favor of believing in freedom - that marshmallowy place just the other side of the light cone. So, I ask you, why would people adopt this belief? Most do. Is there an evolutionary advantage by thinking in this way? What would that be? -
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Re: Is it Freedom or Free Dumb?
Wed, May 28, 2008 - 6:55 PM>>So, I ask you, why would people adopt this belief?<<
This question is applicable only to determinism.
Volition is an experience, not a belief.
Determinism is a belief, not an experience.
You can question the reality of your experience, but any answer you devise -- including determinism -- is just a belief about experience.
So, I ask you, why would people adopt this belief? -
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Re: Is it Freedom or Free Dumb?
Wed, May 28, 2008 - 7:34 PM>Volition is an experience, not a belief.
Determinism is a belief, not an experience. <
very good! -
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Re: Is it Freedom or Free Dumb?
Sat, May 31, 2008 - 12:44 PM'Determinism' seems a poor choice of word to describe phenomena that are actually dependently-related. One does not beget another though both may arise from the same source. At any rate determinism is not something to believe in but something to observe.
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Re: Is it Freedom or Free Dumb?
Wed, May 28, 2008 - 11:33 PM"Volition is an experience, not a belief.
Determinism is a belief, not an experience."
Yes, as sulevay pointed out - nicely said. Exceedingly.
Yet, lets be realistic. When people are asked if they maintain a certain degree of control over their actions, if they have a certain degree of freedom (regardless or not if they do) the vast majority will say they do. This is what I am getting at. I'm not so concerned if most peoples interpretation of volition is right or wrong - just that generally people perceive they have a certain degree of freedom and they value this sense of themselves with relation to the world in which they interact.
Personally I'd say that adherence to such a commonly held view has a survival advantage. In other words - we've been bred to think we can do - right out of the box.
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Re: Is it Freedom or Free Dumb?
Wed, May 28, 2008 - 7:32 PM>Why would we find ourselves to have evolved with the concept even believing that we are free or could be free to do what we want"?<
because life indulges both the mind and the mindfuck.
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