I bet you were the life, er, death of the party...

<spadop-ching>

"onlynow, you can stir magic and reawakening to experience without resorting to the predictably magical and mystical. "

Inner-sciences like "yogic science" is not a "magic" or some fairly land stuff. It's like practicing some martial art, then being able to break 12 sticks, or spending a couple of years of power lifting then benching 315lbs, going through school. It's just a process some people go through, and it opens up aspects of our self that are not ordinarily part of our school/culture. Yoga to me is the "kung fu" of spirituality/awakening, though yoga is just a methodical path... there are many others that come to the same seeing.

And these practices aren't about "achieving" something specific and ridicules like stopping your heart. That's not what it about. That's part of the natural process that we go through as the practice deepens. It's kind of like sitting on a train, and just watching stations go past you and not get off the train.

I was and am naturally curious about the working of the body just as you are the rest of this Tribe is as well. I also went to college, took the various physics/bio-chem/etc/etc courses. I also spent years doing power lifting. I also had an inclination towards meditation, because I know there was a deeper way to perceive the make up of one's body/mind as well the make of the environment/existence/reality through this human body.

I learned to directly observe how the body falls asleep by practicing to stay conscious while the body falls asleep because I wanted to witness what is happening through the various natural cycles of the body. The brain naturally for everyone changes "states" from dream, dreamless, waking, etc. As we study intensly for an exam, the chemistry and brain frequency/states change, when an athletes is focused and running for a long time he enters a "zone" state. These "states" are just part of the human experience that naturally occur. So, I also wanted be conscious of how all these processes happens. As I learned to stay aware as the body fell asleep, the body began to take a different journey on its own, naturally, and effortlessly. All I did was exerted a little intention to remain awake and not go into the dreaming/though-projection place... remained aware. No one needs to ever hear about this natural human process that Yogi's called Savashana or Yoga Nidra... the person who wishes/desires and sets about trying to stay awake while body falls asleep comes to this seeing and all of a sudden, you see something about yourself you never did.

Like this, I began to see deeper subtle aspects, like our "emotional" energy field/consciousness which i categorize as a "body", and the "mental" one, etc. I came to see that these physical, etheric, emotional, mind "bodies" which are kinds of like fields of "matter" and "energy" are all being held like by almost some magnetic inner center/point... perhaps call it "source point" "soul" "jivan" whatever. I came to see there is a mechanism or "programming" to each of these bodies that they function naturally, and through being aware of these aspects of myself, a whole array of wider set of senses/abilities that were allways there became aparent... like when the lake water sits still, the mud settles and you see the lake ground.

For instance, now days I've become aware of what I call "thought-forms". Sometimes when a person is thinking about me, like a thought of affection, concern, etc, I see and sense a transparent thought object that has a specific light-form which travels like a wave-energy hits me and then I feel "ahh, a friend is thinking about me with affection". Often I will clearly identify who it is. This happens so often, that I've come to trust it. For example, a person I just met at a cafe, I felt this wave of energy hit me with affection and I recognized it was him... I logged on to my facebook, and saw that right when I had that feeling, he had sent me a request to add me as a friend on his network.

Or just now I came home from a bar that I met a friend of mine at. We drank, and smoked together. While I was at the bar I felt the energy fields of some people that was very angry and I noticed how it had an effect on me... with this awareness of their though-forms, I choose to be in my own state of enjoyment, yet I could still identify their state. This field of "awareness" where thoughts move in appears to not be just be where I am sitting physically, however, it is certainly anchored or "localized" here, and that's through the human medium. The more I became aware of the landscape of this field of awareness, I came to see that it's all interconnected, having no boundaries... here in spiritual texts is where they say there is no more you and I, seeing that we are all same deep down... same self, same. yet also different in the localization.

I'm only sharing my sincere perspective on the topic of discussion and I feel it is valid... yes different, yet valid... it's not fairly tales and fantasies.

I was watching a video on youtube of some person trying to describe in simple terms the concept of the super-string theory and the 10 or 11 dimensions. Watching the video, the feeling I have is "of course", and "of course" this awareness is able to come up with this theory, as this awareness is capable of not just conceiving of its idea, it's capable of its seeing and even interacting with it.

I see human beings evolving in consciousness as a mass, and we are living at a time that going to an "energy worker" to heal your issues is slowly and effectively transforming psychotherapy. Now they got schools like the ITP in Palo Alto that study this aspects of consciousness and use them for healing and developing our humanity. It's an entirely new "field" for the mainstream schools, and it is being accepted as a science gradually. But long since ancient times, it was known as a "yogic/shamanic/etc science" that involved philosophy, instructions, teaching/curriculum/etc.

It's interesting that going as far back as 15 years ago, many "esoteric" paths had kept their practices still in "secret" only for the "initiates". Now, from all traditions where that knowledge was passed in their own lineages is widely available through online book stores, Internet, etc. The information unfortunately is dispersed, and inconsistence. Regardless, we can take them, study them and come to seeing. And there are many good teachers who guide us, that's another path. Even those teachers themselves are showing up on YouTube of all places.

Yes, the esoteric sciences which are damn grounded in reality as it gets are piercing through and transforming religions and sciences. Even if you are religious, you are surrounded with other religions and methods of spirituality...you just got to open your mind. Sciences are constantly being blown apart and new radical ideas coming on... that 100 years ago would be perceived like "magic". I mean talking about infrared light 500 years ago... they'd think you are crazy.

Namaste

"If I can have a 'thought', let's say the same thought; "roses are red", in any physical state from running a marathon to deep in REM sleep, then it follows that the thought is not dependent upon any particular muscle state."

Well said, Michael. I think that's a better way of putting the objection I raised. I was saying that we can apparently have lots of diverse thoughts while maintaining the same state of musculature, and you're pointing out that we can have the same thought in many different states of muscular activity. I think these points, taken together constitute the biggest immediate problem for the theory Charles has put forth.

"If I can have a 'thought', let's say the same thought; "roses are red", in any physical state from running a marathon to deep in REM sleep, then it follows that the thought is not dependent upon any particular muscle state."

I'm saying that the muscle matrix must be engineered by us in a very defined way to conjure the image of a rose. Under certain sets of circumstances we're capable of doing this, sometimes not. It's how the muscles are held that allow us to focus upon a particular location in memory. In a very rough way we can similarly perform this task, though each of our interpretations is unique for each of us. There are no tow people on earth that experience a rose exactly in the same way. Even the same rose seen and smelled and touched by two people next to one another is a radically different entity.

"If I can have a 'thought', let's say the same thought; "roses are red", in any physical state from running a marathon to deep in REM sleep, then it follows that the thought is not dependent upon any particular muscle state"

it's only superficially the same thought and even only superficially the same sentence.

i call this "falling for the lure of the sign."

meaning is more contextual; it depends on its radiating associations and situational dynamics. the supposedly same sentence means different things in different situations.

the thought maps to a very specific coordination of neurons as well. just because the so-called same words appear doesn't mean everything else those words utterly rely on to exist are the same. in fact, they never are exactly the same.

take this thought far enough and i think you taste the