The Social Value of Determinism

topic posted Wed, January 16, 2008 - 8:17 AM by  Od
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A totalitarian political order would to well to inculcate in the people a firm belief in absolute determinism. This would be best effected beginning with the youngest citizens through education, religion, philosophy, moral training, etc. All must come to believe that no one has any individual control over thoughts, feelings, or actions. Healthy individuals are controlled entirely by benevolent social forces that promote unity and harmony through obedience. In diseased individuals, the channels that allow social control are blocked, and various random malevolent forces hold sway. Society must remove these diseased individuals before their actions infect and weaken the social body.
posted by:
Od
offline Od
California
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  • Re: The Social Value of Determinism

    Wed, January 16, 2008 - 10:40 AM
    They generally remove themselves. Voila! Self-cleaning, no muss, no fuss.
    • Re: The Social Value of Determinism

      Wed, April 9, 2008 - 1:30 PM
      >>They generally remove themselves.<<

      Not so sure about that... Such individuals may seek to survive by unethical means -- especially the ones who continue to believe in determinism. One of the drawbacks to promoting belief in determinism for purposes of social control is that it also apparently inclines people to cheat and lie:

      www.psychologicalscience.org/med....cfm

      It's easy to see how belief in determinism can lead to excusing oneself for moral lapses, by claiming (in effect) "the devil made me do it."
      • Re: The Social Value of Determinism

        Wed, April 9, 2008 - 6:02 PM

        www.nytimes.com/2008/04/08...08tier.html

        article is called "and behind door number 1, a fatal flaw"

        "For half a century, experimenters have been using what’s called the free-choice paradigm to test our tendency to rationalize decisions. This tendency has been reported hundreds of times and detected even in animals. "

        if rationalization even appears in animals (i'm not convinced, but for argument's sake...) then maybe even our choices are programmed and we're a lot less free than we like to think.

        anyway, it's fun article.
        • Re: The Social Value of Determinism

          Sat, April 12, 2008 - 12:06 AM
          Good old Monty Hall. I must admit I got tripped up by Monty Hall a number of years ago, and it is fascinating (in retrospect) to observe how CERTAIN i was that the odds were 50/50. Eventually I saw that I was incorrect, and the "aha" moment came (hint...try the problem with 1000 doors instead of 3...Monty open 998 of the doors and leaves 2). But I've observed others who, no matter how hard you try, seem to remain CONVINCED that the true answer is incorrect. Even the 1000 doors fails to convince them. Scary.

          In defence of those tripped up by Monty, the fallacious reasoning actually makes sense in a real-world setting. Suppose Monty is deceitful, and only opens the other door when you've picked the correct one. In that case, you should never change your mind, and the intuition is quite correct. So perhaps our intuitions are evolved to combat cheating.
      • Re: The Social Value of Determinism

        Thu, June 26, 2008 - 2:15 PM
        "It's easy to see how belief in determinism can lead to excusing oneself for moral lapses, by claiming (in effect) "the devil made me do it.""

        and sorry, in a determinist universe, it looks like we're going to have to introduce the concept of punishment or separation to manage your "faultless" behavior! no luck there, buddy ole pal. we're forced to introduce some new determinist variables to keep "the devil from doing it again."
  • Re: The Social Value of Determinism

    Thu, June 26, 2008 - 2:12 PM
    "A totalitarian political order would to well to inculcate in the people a firm belief in absolute determinism"

    sure, but who can claim total knowledge of the variables involved? no one. so we do our best and close no doors.

    also, totalitarians with a good sense of determinism would realize their power would have to be short-lived, because subordinates coordinate in the end, and power is an on-going tug-of-war, not a static positioning.



    "All must come to believe that no one has any individual control over thoughts, feelings, or actions."

    even a determinist must acknowledge executive function and choice-making. and our behaviors is OURS, so in the manner that the concept of "control" makes any sense at all anywhere, we can use it with behavior.
    • Re: The Social Value of Determinism

      Tue, July 1, 2008 - 9:57 AM
      No doubt some will collapse of their own dead weight; a few
      already have; but it’s hard to imagine a scenario in
      which they all will.
      What cannot be destroyed can, nonetheless, be
      diverted, frozen, transformed, and gradually deprived
      of its substance—which is ultimately
      their capacity to inspire terror. What would
      this mean under contemporary conditions? It’s not
      entirely clear. Perhaps apparati will gradually
      be reduced to window-dressing as the substance
      is pulled out of them from above and below: i.e., both
      from the growth of institutions and from devolution to local
      and regional forms of selfgovernance.
      Perhaps government by media spectacle
      will devolve into spectacle pure and simple (somewhat
      along the lines that politicians would still be able to fulfill a useful social
      function in the entertainment industry).
      More likely it will happen in ways we cannot even anticipate.
      But no doubt there are ways in which it is happening already.
      As Neoliberal states move towards new forms of
      feudalism, concentrating their guns increasingly
      around gated communities, insurrectionary spaces
      open up that we don’t even know about. Some understand
      what many would-be revolutionaries do not: that there
      are times when the stupidest thing one could possibly
      do is raise a red or black flag and issue defiant declarations.
      Sometimes the sensible thing is just to pretend
      nothing has changed, allow some representatives
      to keep their dignity, even show up at their
      shows and make a comment now and then, but otherwise,
      ignore them.

      David Graeber paraphrased
      en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frag...thropology


      intelligence is sometimes defined as problem solving.
      in the perhaps rare occurrence where there are no problems, some will be invented or rediscovered, as in a reset.
      It was Vonnegut who wrote about making fast runners carry weights, so far that slower runners could compete more fairly.

      I don't know how successful it will be, but we might come to a future where virtual realities become 'a final solution',
      those that wish or otherwise engage in harmful acts to themselves and or others will be rendered harmless via virtual realities
      that will be so stunningly real they might willingly remain in 'custody'.

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